*COMPLETED* Private Harry Williams-- 1st Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment.

[ShaunJ]

This memorial ?  http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2560490

[seahall]

Sorry, I was in-correct.

Now we have the correct one.

Sandy

[Annette7]

I can't help thinking that a 48 year seems somewhat old to be serving in 1914.   I wonder whether his age was actually 40 and last digit misread - this would tie in with someone living in Farnham in 1911.

Annette

[Stebie9173]

His number suggests a date of enlistment in the middle of 1900, possibly about September 1900. He would have gone through training at the Northamptonshire Regiment Depot in Northampton for about 4 months and then been posted to a Regular Army battalion in about December 1900. At that time, because of the (Second) Boer War both battalions were overseas - the 1st in India and the 2nd in South Africa. Thus men were posted to the 2nd Battalion "Details" - a Depot company that held soldiers until they were fully trained for overseas service.

Though men would normally spend two or three years in a Home battalion the period was shortened due to the needs of the war and he would have probably gone overseas in late 1901 or early 1902 (6176 Alfred McNaught went to South Africa on 9-9-1901). A man that is likely to be Harry Williams - 20 year old Henry Williams born at London, Middlesex - actually appears on the 1901 Census on the same page as Alfred McNaught (if you have trouble finding Harry on the 1901 Census search for Alfred McNaught, born at Titchmarsh, resident at Verne Citadel, Portland in 1901).

No. 6188 H Williams of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment appears on the Medal Roll (National Archives Reference WO 100) for the Queen's South Africa Medal - he was entitled to the Clasps for Transvaal and South Africa 1902. This would suggest he arrived in South Africa between 1-1-1902 and the end of the war on 31-5-1902.

He would only appear on the 1911 Census as a Soldier if he extended his active service period from the normal seven (or three for a period in the early 1900s) years active service with five on Reserve to twelve years active service (the usual maximum). I suspect that he would have transferred to Reserve before 1911 and been eligible for discharge as "Time Expired" in 1912.

Since he retained his old number in 1914 it appears likely that he signed up for further "Section D" Reserve service which meant he was mobilised from Reserve in August 1914. His 20 September 1914 date of embarkation to France and Flanders is typical of those older men rejoining under the extended Reserve periods.


I may be able to add some further thoughts tomorrow.


Steve.

[EwshotLad]

Hi Everyone

Thank you all for your responses.

Based on them I decided to wipe the slate clean and go back to square one.I had already found a possibility on the 1911 Census but he was a Labourer. Following up on this man I discovered a  marriage for a Henry George son of Walter Thomas in an index. When I found the Marriage Entry for 1906 the Groom was named as Henry George and his occupation was Private Nothants Rgt. The CWGC site had named him Harry and his father as Henry George.

I then went looking for Baptisms The Census said he had 3 children One I haven't found yet, one in Farnham in 1910 which described the father as a Scavenger and then one in 1907 where Henry is described as a Private soldier of Colchester.

The CWGC site gave his DOB as 1866, the Census as 1873 and the Marriage Cert as 1879. I found a Free BMD entry for 1883 that looks likely in Southwark Sry which sounds like Southwick.

I think I am now well on the way to completing his entry especially when after I had worked all this out along came Steve's post and gave me all the answers I was looking for , so thanks again everyone.

The village is Ewshot and it is very near Aldershot and Crookham Army Camps. Local girls were always marrying soldiers.

If you know of a War Memorial that is unloved it is a very interesting project to discover the lives of the names.I found some ordinary men doing extraordinary things.

Cheers and Thanks
Vic Wise

[Stebie9173]

When I last left it last night before the need for sleep overtook (I will have to find these things earlier in the evening!) I was thinking along the lines of "Southwark" as well, though describing Southwark as Middlesex would probably upset both the Middlesex and the Surrey side of the Thames....

The 2nd Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment were based at Bordon after their arrival back from South Africa in 1904 and then moved to Colchester in 1906. When the 1st Battalion came back from India in March 1911 (many men of the 1st Battalion were on Leave at the time of the 1911 census on 2-4-1911) the 2nd Battalion went out to Malta and later Egypt. The 1st Battalion, on arrival back in the UK, were then stationed at Raglan Barracks at Devonport and then moved to Blackdown Camp at Aldershot in 1913.

I cannot see him on the 1911 Census with the 2nd Battalion on Malta. Unlike some Regiments, Williams actually appears to be a rare name in the Northamptons!



EDIT:


Being at Colchester in 1907 and then civilian in 1910 would certainly fit with the standard pre-war terms of enlistment. If his service went to "expectations" he would have had approximately the following service:

1900 - Enlisted, posted to Depot for Training
1901 - Posted to "Details" at Portland
1901 - Census: At Verne Citadel, Portland
1902 - Posted to South Africa with 2nd Battalion
1904 - Returned to the UK with 2nd Battalion and posted to Bordon
1906 - Moved to Colchester with 2nd Battalion
1907/8 - Posted to Section "A" or "B" Reserve
1911 - Census: At home in civilian employment and on Army reserve
1912 - Discharge on expire of terms of engagement after 12 years
1912 - Signed up for four more years under Section D Reserve
1914 - Recalled from Reserve within his Reserve period




Steve.

[Stebie9173]

Is the 1911 census entry you have found the really damaged sheet showing Henry Williams, age 31, with Edith Lucy Williams, as his wife (plus two sons and one stepson) at Jubilee Villa, Jacobs Lane, Ash and Normandy, Farnham?

I think she was originally Edith Lucy Kent, married to Henry Williams at Farnham Reg. district in 1907.


Steve.

[EwshotLad]

Hi Steve

Thanks for the new info, I appreciate your late night efforts

I am guessing that you keep a database on all ex Northants Reg't soldiers so I'll list what I know.

WW1 Medal Roll Index Card---  Entries on this card were done at two different times. The first had his name as H. Williams and in the amendment Harry was added without the H being struck out so his name became Harry H Williams

This name was transcribed to the CWGC Entry for him so he ends up with the wrong name. His father's name is also wrong, it should be Walter Thomas [ see later ] and his age wrong also [should be 31 approx ]

Wife is named as Edith Williams. There is a marriage in Surrey Marriages [Ancestry ] between Henry George Williams and Edith Clarke on 1NOV1906 at Hale Parish church. Henry is a Private Northamptonshire Reg't aged 27 and his father is Walter Thomas a Glass Bottle Maker.

The Regiment was at Bordon on return from SA. Bordon is near Farnham so this is where they probably met.

A baptism at Farnham on 11Oct1907 for Edith Williams names parents as Henry George and Edith and describes him as Private Soldier and gives an address in Colchester.

Another baptism on 18 Aug 1910 for Henry George gives same parents but now of Farnham and Henry is a Scavenger so has fallen on hard times.

There is a baptism at St Alphege Southwark on 6June1885 for a Henry Williams s/o Walter with a sister on the same day so Henry may be a couple of years old.

In the 1881 Census Walter and family are at Southwark without Henry so giving credence to post 1881 birth. Walter is a glass Blower

In 1891 the family is at Hackney with an 8 yr old Henry.

1901 Henry is at Portland

1911 Henry and Edith are at Beavers Yard Farnham. He is a Labourer but his age is 38 which is 10 years too old so maybe his maths wasn't that good. They have 2 children with them so one is missing. Harry gives birthplace as Middlesex.

Tied in with your info I think we now know all that we need.

There are 23 names on the War Memorial at Ewshot so it was an interesting exercise. Probably the most interesting was a lad from London who became a Gunner in the RFA a few years before the war. He deserted in early 1914, went to New Zealand enlisted in the NZFA with a different Forename but gave the same name for parents and wife. He was shipped to Suez and Gallipoli and then UK . In  1918 he was a Sgt at Ewshot Camp, died of illness and was buried in Ewshot Church.

Thanks again
Cheers
Vic

[artdec0]

Arthur McNaught MC is my gt-uncle's father. 

His number suggests a date of enlistment in the middle of 1900, possibly about September 1900. He would have gone through training at the Northamptonshire Regiment Depot in Northampton for about 4 months and then been posted to a Regular Army battalion in about December 1900. At that time, because of the (Second) Boer War both battalions were overseas - the 1st in India and the 2nd in South Africa. Thus men were posted to the 2nd Battalion "Details" - a Depot company that held soldiers until they were fully trained for overseas service.

Though men would normally spend two or three years in a Home battalion the period was shortened due to the needs of the war and he would have probably gone overseas in late 1901 or early 1902 (6176 Alfred McNaught went to South Africa on 9-9-1901). A man that is likely to be Harry Williams - 20 year old Henry Williams born at London, Middlesex - actually appears on the 1901 Census on the same page as Alfred McNaught (if you have trouble finding Harry on the 1901 Census search for Alfred McNaught, born at Titchmarsh, resident at Verne Citadel, Portland in 1901).

No. 6188 H Williams of the 2nd Battalion Northamptonshire Regiment appears on the Medal Roll (National Archives Reference WO 100) for the Queen's South Africa Medal - he was entitled to the Clasps for Transvaal and South Africa 1902. This would suggest he arrived in South Africa between 1-1-1902 and the end of the war on 31-5-1902.

He would only appear on the 1911 Census as a Soldier if he extended his active service period from the normal seven (or three for a period in the early 1900s) years active service with five on Reserve to twelve years active service (the usual maximum). I suspect that he would have transferred to Reserve before 1911 and been eligible for discharge as "Time Expired" in 1912.

Since he retained his old number in 1914 it appears likely that he signed up for further "Section D" Reserve service which meant he was mobilised from Reserve in August 1914. His 20 September 1914 date of embarkation to France and Flanders is typical of those older men rejoining under the extended Reserve periods.


I may be able to add some further thoughts tomorrow.


Steve.