IRELAND: Family mystery!!

[liverpool annie]

Not trying to put the cat among the pigeons or anything -
but when Kathy and I first started this we had a couple of thoughts -

Margaret before I say anything - you have to understand that we all of us find all kinds of skeletons in the closet  and after the shock of the first one - it starts getting quite exciting!! Having said that - here's a couple of possible scenerios....

!. What if Ester was the birth mom and Bridget didn't know about the baby until after James married her --  then she didn't want to go through the humiliation of everybody knowing what an "ungentleman" James was, how he tricked her and an annulment?

2. Or to think like Kev ( and a man's point of view is always a plus!!: ) Bridget was pregnant and they dummied up the name bit somehow?   Big stretch between Ester's name and Bridget's name however (and then what about those Masterson's that you assume are Bridget's parents? )

Maybe it's something to ponder - like I said -  our families are not usually what we think they are - I know with my own -  I have more than a few liars cheats and cons....!!but you know what? that's what makes them all the more endearing

Annie

[liverpool annie]

Margaret

Another thought that comes to mind seeing as how they are in Dublin....
I don't know if you have heard of the Magdelan Sisters - it was a place where unmarried girls went -( they had a terrible life - by the way! - )
and the baby wouldn't have gone too -  if the mother could find alternative arrangements!!

Just a thought!!

Annie

http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html

[aggiebagwash]

It says the informant is C. Sloane present at birth. I presume a nurse as she was born in Rotunda hospital. However there is no Christian name given for the child. I am unfamiliar with Irish certificates so don't know if this was the normal way of registering a birth in a hospital.

Margaret

[liverpool annie]

This might help with looking in Ireland!! thought you might find it handy :

Irish naming patterns

First son after father's father
Second son after mother's father
Third son after father
Fourth son after father's oldest brother
Fifth son after mother's oldest brother
 

First daughter after mother's mother (or father's mother)
Second daughter after father's mother (or mother's mother)
Third daughter after mother
Fourth daughter after mother's oldest sister
Fifth daughter after father's oldest sister

[aggiebagwash]

Annie

Trust me my whole family on both sides created the skeleton in the cupboard scenario. There is nothing that would shock me anymore. I'm too broadminded for that anyway.

Your theory of the illegitimate child being born in to Esther could be right but I don't understand why she would be brought up as Fanning and her brother's
being told she wasn't their sister. From what I can remember they all looked after her even when they left home and my father went to see her at least two or three times a week until she died in 1974. She was only called Fewings by my cousins and myself otherwise it was Fannings. I suppose because it was difficult to explain things and children were meant to be seen and not heard in my childhood. Ha!Ha! didn't work with me though that's why I know nearly all the family secrets.

I know Bridget was a Masterson as I have her birth, marriage and death certificates. I think I really need to persue Esther's marriage or death certificates. That will open up a new agenda if I can identify her as a living person not a figment of my imagination.

And yes Annie I know all about Catholic Nuns I went to a Convent myself and lived near an orphanage so there is very little you can tell me about them.

Thanks for the naming pattern I will toss a few ideas around and get back to you.
Margaret

[Chattykathy]

Hi Margaret,  just caught up on all the last posts,

Looks like you pretty much have all the information you need with all the documents you have already accumulated with DOB, DOD, marriages, etc.  So seems you should be able to add all things together quite well, actually!

I don't have ANY actual certs except my own! But have still managed to ferret out a family secret or two or three....... Much to the dismay of some older cousins whose ears should have been bigger!

Don't think just because everyone liked and cared for Kathleen that it necessarily says anything about the circumstances of her birth.  My Ggrandfather was illigitimate --  took his "adopted" father name, his mother lived within the family well respected and loved by her son and grandchildren, and until about a month ago no one knew he was born out of wedlock and his father was not her husband!

Hesitate in making any more suggestions, actually... but one last one and then will leave you to own devices,  noticed your post on the Dublin look up for 1901 - "Just in case"  they are not at the location you think,  might want to fill in with enough details so that they might be located at another location.  I'm sure you know from your own look up  experience, often hard to determine if it is the right person without at least a birthdate (or guesstimate of it) to compare to....might save some false starts for the looker upper and get you where you want to go faster!

Good luck!
kathy

[aggiebagwash]

Hi Kathy

Well yes I suppose that having the certificates does help though its not got me very far has it?

I will take on board your advice about expanding on the information on the Dublin board.  I love all the family secrets that keep coming out into the open. As a child I was very astute and could always put two and two together and so far they have always made four. My daughters go mad when I say something and then am proved right Ha! Ha!

I think it is sad that openness and honesty in families was repressed it must have made life very difficult at times.

Will keep in touch if I find anything. Thanks for all the help and suggestions you have given me.

Margaret

[Chattykathy]

Hello Margaret,     This was the answer from the Board moderator at Rootsweb.com to someone elses (?) inquiry -- or was it you??

Quote
The first complete census records for Ireland are for 1901 and 1911. Neither is indexed by surname so you need to know the specific location of those you're researching to look at the specific geographic location. They're available on microfilm through a LDS Family History Centre.

The census records for 1861, 71, 81 and 91 were all destroyed by the English Government (there was no Irish Government at that time). The first two were destroyed shortly after completion it's believed for confidentiality reasons and the last two for use as pulp during WWI. Census records for 1821, 31, 41 and 51 were largely destroyed in 1922 during the Irish Civil War, just before independence from England.

Civil registration records began in Ireland in 1864 (Protestant marriages in 1845). They're not online. Indexes and some detailed records have been microfilmed and are available through a LDS Family HIstory Centre. Otherwise if you know the date of the event you can request copies of certs through the An tSeirbhís um Chlárú Sibhialta -- the General Register Office.

The primary research source in Ireland is church registers but you need to know your ancestor's religion as well as the townland, civil parish and county where they originated to identify the church registers for that location.     End Quote

kathy

[aggiebagwash]

Thanks Kathy

That is the first time I have seen anything relating to the whereabouts of the records and what is available. Thanks so much for taking the trouble to send it to me. It's a lot to take in in one go but I think that I will try to find a researcher to look at specific addresses. It's just finding one. I have had some horrendous quotes over the years but very little information at the end.

My problem is that I don't drive so going to an LDS Family History Centre can take upto two hours from where I live and they are usually only open in the evenings. The annoying thing is there used to be one about 2 miles away and it closed down and was transferred to one 15 miles away. Ce la vie!!

The other alternative suggested by Annie was to visit Dublin and do the research myself. It's very tempting but I will have to put it off for a while as I am fully booked with weddings and holidays for the next few months. Just had an idea. Try and get myself invited to a wedding in Dublin and then I have got no excuse. Ha! Ha!

Will keep you in touch with my plans. thanks once again for the information.

Margaret