Author Topic: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?  (Read 7043 times)

Offline 100%Gog

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WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« on: Thursday 15 May 14 13:00 BST (UK) »
During the first world war my grandfather served in the Royal Welch Fusiliers and saw action in the Egypt and Palestine campaigns. I assumed that he was either in the 5th or 6th battalion as they served in these regions.

I have been told that his service number suggests he was in the 4th battalion but as far as I am aware they served in France/Belgium only. Did any of the 4th transfer to the 5th or 6th battalion?

My grandfather's name was Robert John Roberts and service number was 201389.

Can anyone clear this up for me please?  :-\
Griffith(s) - Anglesey: Pentraeth, Llanddona.

Hughes - Anglesey: Holyhead, Llangefni, Pentraeth.
Caernarvonshire: Gyffin, Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr.

Jones - Anglesey: Llangefni
Denbighshire: Betws yn Rhos, Llanfairtalhaiarn

Owen/Owens - Anglesey: Llanbadrig.
Caernarvonshire: Bangor, Penrhosgarnedd.
Denbighshire: Cerrigydrudion.

Roberts - Caernarvonshire: Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr, Llysfaen.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline km1971

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 15 May 14 14:15 BST (UK) »
He must have been in the 4th Battalion to have that number. However if he later transferred to either the 5th Bn, 6th Bn or 7thBn he would have retained his six-digit 4th Bn number. This was one of the changes as before March 1917 all four battalions - 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th - would each have had a man with number 6789 for example.

The 4th RWF had two battalions 1st/4th and 2nd/4th. If there are no other numbers on his medal card you can assume that he was conscripted into 2nd/4th and after training was posted to either 1st/5th, 1st/6th or 1st/7th who have the same movements.

In theory he could have served in 1st/4th in France, but I doubt that he would have been transferred from France to Palestine. More likely that he returned to the UK injured and was transferred to 5th, 6th or 7th after recovering.

If his service record has not survived you will never know when he transferred to 5th, 6th or 7th Bn for certain. If you have Ancestry and a few spare hours you can try searching for men with a close number 20138?, then 20137?, 20139? etc on the National Archives WW1 medal site. Look for uncommon names and search for the records of these men on Ancestry.

The war diaries of 5th, 6th or 7th RWF may say when reinforcements arrived. These are being put online now, and may already be available. I suspect it will be late 1917/early 1918.

Ken

Offline 100%Gog

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 15 May 14 21:07 BST (UK) »
Hi Ken,

Thanks for the information.

Your idea of checking service numbers close to his is a good idea, it may give me more info.

I have my grand father's medals and medal card but the card only shows his name, rank and number and his regiment RWF. No battalion number. The card also states the two medals he won as the British and the Victory medals, no star. It also has a reference code along side the medals - Roll J/2/102 B34 Page 11102.

Thanks again,

Gareth

Griffith(s) - Anglesey: Pentraeth, Llanddona.

Hughes - Anglesey: Holyhead, Llangefni, Pentraeth.
Caernarvonshire: Gyffin, Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr.

Jones - Anglesey: Llangefni
Denbighshire: Betws yn Rhos, Llanfairtalhaiarn

Owen/Owens - Anglesey: Llanbadrig.
Caernarvonshire: Bangor, Penrhosgarnedd.
Denbighshire: Cerrigydrudion.

Roberts - Caernarvonshire: Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr, Llysfaen.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline km1971

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 15 May 14 21:24 BST (UK) »
Hi Gareth

The reference code is to the medal roll in Kew. It may give his battalion.

Ken


Offline 100%Gog

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 15 May 14 21:40 BST (UK) »
I have not found his service record so I suspect its one of the many that were lost.

I think you could be right about the 2nd/4th and the dates fit about right, late 1917/early 1918. Any info that the family have seems to date around 1917/1918.

Thanks for the heads up on the Kew info.

Gareth
Griffith(s) - Anglesey: Pentraeth, Llanddona.

Hughes - Anglesey: Holyhead, Llangefni, Pentraeth.
Caernarvonshire: Gyffin, Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr.

Jones - Anglesey: Llangefni
Denbighshire: Betws yn Rhos, Llanfairtalhaiarn

Owen/Owens - Anglesey: Llanbadrig.
Caernarvonshire: Bangor, Penrhosgarnedd.
Denbighshire: Cerrigydrudion.

Roberts - Caernarvonshire: Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr, Llysfaen.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Gwil

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 May 14 21:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Gareth

The reference code is to the medal roll in Kew. It may give his battalion.

Ken

That Medal Roll shows 201389 Robert John Roberts (from Penmaenmawr but that's not on the Roll though)served 6th Battalion and then an attchment to Command Depot*

Numbers around him enlistedcalled up early April 1916. As the whole Territorial Force were renumbered to six digit numbers in early 1917 he would have another (4 digit number). This is not endorsed on the Medal Card or the Medal Roll so therefore, as Ken points out,  he went overseas 1917 onwards. Unfortunately trying to pinpoint this date going overseas from the numbers around will not work as they are posted to various battalions across all theaters (and the Egypt ones have the 4 digit numbers showing indicating they went earlier that Robert)

With regards to his 4 digit number. Henry Rees Jones 201396 (also from Pen) was 9252. Henry actually served with the 1st 4th Bn itself in France and was wounded around May/June 1918.
On the otherside George Alderson Hamer (from Llanidloes) 201386 was 9245. After George comes William Richard Thomas (Pwllheli, served 11th Bn Salonika) then Evan Owen 201388 from Gerizim Terrace, Llanfairfechan who went to the 8th Bn in Mesopotamia then Robert as 201389 so his number was between 9246 and 9251 inclusive.

Gwil




* I cannot further expand on what/where this Depot might be only to say it was probably in that theatre of war as it is is endorsed on the Roll (UK 'home' units were not so endorsed)

Offline 100%Gog

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 May 14 21:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Gwil,

Many thanks for this valuable information, trying to confirm his battalion has been a source of great frustration to me.

My grand father Robert John Roberts lived in Penmaenmawr (23 David Street) and as I previously said, any cards, photos and souvenirs about his army years show only 1917/1918 and all from Egypt and Palestine. Unfortunately, all these items only show years (e.g. Egypt 1918) and no actual dates.

I guess my next step is to look up these 4 digit numbers between 9246 to 9251, with the chance he may come up. Also, this attachment to Command Depot interests me. Now I have his battalion I am thinking its worth having a look at the battalion diaries. I know it will not give individual personnel details but it should give me the battalion movements in 1917/1918.

Gareth
Griffith(s) - Anglesey: Pentraeth, Llanddona.

Hughes - Anglesey: Holyhead, Llangefni, Pentraeth.
Caernarvonshire: Gyffin, Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr.

Jones - Anglesey: Llangefni
Denbighshire: Betws yn Rhos, Llanfairtalhaiarn

Owen/Owens - Anglesey: Llanbadrig.
Caernarvonshire: Bangor, Penrhosgarnedd.
Denbighshire: Cerrigydrudion.

Roberts - Caernarvonshire: Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr, Llysfaen.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Gwil

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 16 May 14 22:04 BST (UK) »
The Diaries are not online yet but the RWF Regimental Records Vol 4 might interest you for the relevant Theatre

https://archive.org/details/regimentalrecord04dudl

Download it to your PC

I take it you have seen the records for Thomas Edward Roberts of that address?

Gwil

Offline 100%Gog

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Re: WW1 Royal Welch Fusiliers which one was my grandfather's battalion?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 16 May 14 22:16 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the link, looks an interesting read.

Yes thanks, I have the records for Thomas Edward Roberts (Uncle Tom), he was my grandfather's younger brother. It is a shame that my grandfathers records are not still around.

Gareth
Griffith(s) - Anglesey: Pentraeth, Llanddona.

Hughes - Anglesey: Holyhead, Llangefni, Pentraeth.
Caernarvonshire: Gyffin, Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr.

Jones - Anglesey: Llangefni
Denbighshire: Betws yn Rhos, Llanfairtalhaiarn

Owen/Owens - Anglesey: Llanbadrig.
Caernarvonshire: Bangor, Penrhosgarnedd.
Denbighshire: Cerrigydrudion.

Roberts - Caernarvonshire: Dwygyfylchi, Penmaenmawr, Llysfaen.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk