Author Topic: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again  (Read 22671 times)

Offline avm228

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #63 on: Monday 26 May 14 08:28 BST (UK) »
Going from the sanitary report about the cesspool, I think 8 Percy Passage must have been at the far Upper Rathbone Place end of the passage. The cesspool problem affected "two houses", one of which was no 8 and the other had an Upper Rathbone Place address.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline drykid

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #64 on: Monday 26 May 14 09:47 BST (UK) »
This Westminster doc has a lot of interesting info on the history of the Charlotte Street area (including scans of quite a few maps, unfortunately at not a very high resolution though):

http://transact.westminster.gov.uk/docstores/publications_store/Charlotte%20Street%20West%20CAA%20SPG.pdf

One of the maps featured there (Horwood's map of 1746) led me to a later Horwood map from 1799 which is available elsewhere on the net:



(I've a feeling this is the same map that we got the numbering for Richmond Buildings from previously.)

Unfortunately although that one includes street numbering for the area (which is what I after) it looks like there were no properties within Percy Passage at that point.  So these must have been a 19th century addition. Also the numbering for Charlotte Street itself was clearly completely different then since the building opposite the chapel which is now no. 13 was no. 93 then, and the old no. 13 was on the other side of the street. (Also Percy Chapel seems to have been known as Charlotte Chapel at the time.)

Incidentally http://www.motco.com/map/ is a very good resource for London maps as it has quite a few of them from different periods, all of which can be viewed as separate "zoomed-in" detail versions for readability.



Offline drykid

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #65 on: Monday 26 May 14 10:04 BST (UK) »
Also from a Sun Fire Office insurance document (not online) indexed by National Archives:

Quote
Folder icon  [no title]  MS 11936/519/1098201  21 October 1829


These documents are held at London Metropolitan Archives

Contents:
Insured: George Tudor, John Perry, James Perry, Samuel Shore, John Tims and Frederick Holbrook esq
Other property or occupiers: Percy Chapel, Charlotte Street, Rathbone Place; 1 to 7 Percy Passage (3 shoemaker, 4 dentist, 5 and 6 dealer in marine stores, 7 clothes shop); 41 and a half and 42 Upper Rathbone Place (cork cutter, green grocer)

Seems like Percy Passage was quite a busy place back then.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #66 on: Monday 26 May 14 11:27 BST (UK) »
I think I was mistaken before, thinking that the shops were attached to the other side of Percy Passage. Looking at the picture at Deb's reply #38, plus other maps etc, it looks like the shops were attached to the wall of the Chapel. I think the passage might have been about the same width as it is today, however now the chapel plus the adjoining shops have been replaced by other buildings.
The image at #38 shows the white building between the chapel and Percy Passage, which looks like it might be the same one which can be seen on google maps today. :)


Offline drykid

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #67 on: Monday 26 May 14 11:52 BST (UK) »
I'm a bit confused what you mean; the smaller building between the chapel and Percy Passage was almost certainly demolished at the same time as the chapel itself, with the Dental Depot built on the site of both (which is now the Charlotte Hotel.)

As for which side the shops were on, it's possible that up to the demolition of the chapel there could have been shops on either or both sides of the passage  as far as I can see.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #68 on: Monday 26 May 14 12:56 BST (UK) »
I'm a bit confused what you mean; the smaller building between the chapel and Percy Passage was almost certainly demolished at the same time as the chapel itself, with the Dental Depot built on the site of both (which is now the Charlotte Hotel.)


Yes, that is what I mean.  :)

Looking at the excellent Horwood map I nos 41 and 93 would probably face the main streets, so I tend to think that the shops might only have been on the Chapel side of the Passage. Don't know if they would have shop's doorways at the side of a building? Perhaps they did ....  :-\

The Horwoods maps shows the Charlotte St end blocked off and something that looks like an extension almost the entire length of the Chapel. I wondered if this was where the shops were situated.

Of course there could have been changes between when this map was made and 1851.  :)


Offline drykid

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #69 on: Monday 26 May 14 13:18 BST (UK) »
Oh ok I thought you were saying you could see the building between the chapel and the passage on google maps today, which definitely would be unlikely :)

By Nat's time no. 93 would've been replaced by no. 13, which is either a much larger building than before, or alternatively the Horwood's map doesn't draw buildings to scale (I suspect the latter since all the houses in the area are of remarkably similar size.)  But either way the building that was there in Nat's day (And still there now) stretches most of the length of the passage and therefore it's possible that shops could've been built into the side of it.

But equally I agree that the building alongside the chapel could have contained a row of shops, so I still think it's possible that there were shops on both sides.  I think it may be very hard to figure this out further unless someone gets hold of some kind of original planning documents (assuming they had such things back then!)

Good spot that the passage didn't open originally onto Charlotte Street, although that may well have changed by 18-30 when nos. 11 and 13 were built.


Offline avm228

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #70 on: Monday 26 May 14 15:24 BST (UK) »
I suppose there is just a chance that the enumerator's route descriptions in 1851 or 1861 might help, in that they might indicate whether 1-8 Percy Passage were all on the south side or split north & south. I admit it is unlikely such detail will appear for such a tiny alleyway!
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline deb usa

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Re: The Diary of Nathaniel Bryceson Revisited Again
« Reply #71 on: Monday 26 May 14 16:43 BST (UK) »
No such luck with the Enumerator's notes;

1841 (added: no numbers mentioned , Stephen Bland snr. (a cutler) and jnr were residents)
St Pancras
Charlotte St
Russell Place
Fitzroy St
Percy Passage
Bedford Passage
North St
Pitt St

1851 (added: numbers 4, 5 and 8 mentioned, Stephen Bland jnr. ( a cutler) at #8)
St Pancras
Charlotte St, Fitzroy Square
Russell St,     "
Fitzroy St,     "
North St,       "
Pitt St,          "
Percy Passage, "
Bedford Passage, "

I have read in a newspaper article (1863) that there were also Wine cellars (owned by a wine dealer of Charlotte Street) underneath Percy Chapel. The vaults/cellars opened up from Charlotte Street and Upper Rathbone Place.

Another article dated 11 September 1838:
PERCY CHAPEL to be sold, a copy hold estate ....
it states that the sale consists of:
* Percy Chapel capable of accommodating 1200 persons !!!!
* Vaults underneath
* 7 adjoining tenements
* A ground rent arising from a school and house let to the Russell School of Industry
* The Chapel and vaults may be purchased separately

Deb


Travellers = Penfold, Orchard, James
Devon = Middleton,  Waterfield, Adams, Clark/e, Gould
Cornwall = Palmer, Carnarton, Slack/Smith. Morris/h
Wales, New Quay = James, Evans


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