Pls help, Is Daniel Kelly who died in Nth Qld an uncle of Ned Kelly's?

[iforani]

  Hi
I am trying to establish for my Kelly bro-in-law, whether his great grandfather, Daniel Kelly, was an uncle of Ned Kelly, as suggested by some trees on an online ancestry site. I've researched this quite extensively but as yet have no definite proof that Daniel was Ned's uncle.
The Qld Daniel Kelly was, according to records born in Co. Kildare,  Ireland (while all of Thomas Kelly & Mary Kelly's other children, including Ned Kelly's father, John "Red" Kelly, were born in Co. Tipperary, Ireland. His birth year, based on his age at death on his death certificate, is estimated to be 1817. He emigrated circa 1849 & he married in 1850.
Red Kelly, according to records that I've seen, had a brother named Daniel, born in 1839, who emigrated to Australia in 1857 with 4 of his siblings on the ship, "Maldon." How can I verify this detail on emigration to Qld? Given that the Tipperary Daniel would have been only 11 at the time of Qld Daniel's marriage in 1850, it is highly unlikely, yes? that this was Red Kelly's brother, unless...the date of Tipperary Daniel's birth date is wrong. Red Kelly was supposedly the first son born to the infamous Kellys in 1820 (who married in 1819). There are several trees on an ancestry site that list another Daniel born in 1817 (his actual birth name could have been William Daniel or something similar & the first name was dropped?) as well as a Richard who was supposedly born (like Red) in 1820 but ended up in the US.
Qld Daniel's parents are not listed on his death certificate. In 1896 though, one might have been wary about claiming kinship with the infamous Ned, because of police persecution, publicity (with Ned executed in 1880)?
Qld Daniel (from Kildare) married a lady called Ellen Pacey (spelt Pacy on the certificate) in 1850. I'll attach a copy of this certificate too. Qld records have this marriage listed as being in 1854 when it actually occurred in 1850. In 1854 the Qld records state that a  Margaret Pacey (spelt also Pacy) married an Edward Kelly (who like Daniel, came from Co Kildare) in Qld. Now, Margaret Pacey & Ellen Pacey were sisters who both came from Co Carlow in Ireland. It may be possible, given this, that Edward & Daniel were brothers? yet the online ancestry trees list Edward as having parents Mark Kelly & Julia Brennan (from Ireland) compared to Daniel's as Thomas Kelly & Mary Cody (ie Red Kelly's parents). I had thought when I bought the image of Daniel's Qld marriage certificate that it might have listed his parents' names but this information was not even requested by the Qld authorities; was this normal? I only bought the $20 copy; if I had paid for the $28 copy would this hold more information?
I would love some help on this one. I realise that if I could get the date & place of Red Kelly's father's death (ie Thomas Kelly), his DC might give some indication of his children's names & ages. There is conflicting information on this though. Someone online has him dying in NSW.
Please help!
Deb

[Billyblue]

Until/unless you can prove it, I'd be very sceptical of the trees on Ancestry     

Then again, they may prove to be right.

In my own Blue family, for instance, because Billy Blue was a well known figure in Sydney in the early 1800s, people like to link all sorts of things to him.  I even read a newspaper article about a house "that belonged to Billy Blue" - except that it was built years after he died.  They didn't explain how he managed to own it from the afterlife        

And someone from the second marriage of someone who married a descendant Blue for her first marriage, likes to claim she is descended from Billy Blue when she is not at all, but from his grand-daughter-in-law (if there is such a relationship) ! 

So, be cautious, as it appears you already are.
Have you looked in TROVE for any newspaper reports that might throw light on Daniel from Nth Qld's ancestry?

Good luck!

Dawn M

[iforani]

Thanks, Dawn. Yes, you're right, I am sceptical of online trees with wrong information & this is why I've presented the facts that are available to me which appear to indicate that Daniel was not related to the infamous Kellys. But then again, the dates could be wrong & he could be? The fact that no one has (to my knowledge anyway) discovered what happened to Tipperary Daniel Kelly is interesting.
If I can trace whether the information that I read about Tipperary Daniel's immigration & trace the other Daniel's immigration this might help answer the question. Also if I could access the marriage records with more detail this would help.
Yes, I have researched him on Trove & there are articles about him & about one of his sons, Daniel Joseph Kelly (& others!). Thanks for that suggestion. 

[Dundee]

You will find the KELLY siblings arriving on the Maldon here in 1857:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24

Your Daniel had married 7 years before this Daniel arrived in Australia and there was quite a difference in their ages.  I think that if anyone is having trouble researching the KELLYs it would mainly be because it is such a common name.  I can see a number of possible marriages and deaths in Victoria for men named Daniel KELLY.

There is quite a lot of information on Trove about Edward KELLY's family at Gracemere.  I think his death notice in 1879 says he was aged 64 which makes him born around 1815.  Daniel and Edward may have been the two who arrived on the 'Ann Milne' in 1842 aged 22 and 26:
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?series=NRS5316&item=4_4782&ship=Anne%20Milne

Annoyingly their parents are not named on the immigration record but noted as 'dead'.  Both were contracted to work at Moreton Bay; Edward for Mr ARCHER (which tallys with the newspaper stories) and Daniel for a Mr HAMILTON.  They were both from Kildare but I do see that the details on their entitlement certificates are completely different.  Different parish priests certifying their baptisms, different doctors vouching for their health, and different people giving them a character reference, so they may not have been brothers but could still have been related.

Queensland was still part of NSW in 1850 which is why you will find Daniel's marriage in the NSW indexes  http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/bdm_fh.html

Civil registration of BDMs did not start until 1856 and so what you have is an entry from a church marriage register and is the only record for those times.

You will find the KELLY siblings arriving on the Maldon here in 1857:
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=24

Debra 

Just adding that this arrival is the one referred to online but I have no idea if these really are John 'Red' KELLY's siblings, you would need to look at the documents (which are on microfiche) to see if any more info is given.

I am sure that someone would have done some reputable research into this family so perhaps if you have a look at some books you will find published documents/family trees.

Debra 

[iforani]

Thank you!
Firstly, Dawn I meant to say thank you for your anecdotes on your Blue family & on Billy Blue. I just read about him (after your post) & he was an interesting person.
Wow, Debra, again you have amazed me with your knowledge & ability to apply it! This does look like the same Daniel & Edward arriving together (possibly cousins then?) from Kildare, to stay in touch & later marry the Pacey sisters.
Yes, this is not the same Daniel as the younger Daniel Kelly. I had thought that there may have been an older Daniel Kelly (named Patrick Daniel or William Daniel or something) but Irish records would have to be traced to follow that one through.
Thank you for that info on the Ann Milne, Debra. Where did you find out that both parents were dead, ie how did you access those immigration records? I think I will have to join ancestry sooner rather than later!! Thank you for all of that other information. It certainly answers some questions. I have read the stories on Trove, ta. Interesting reading, eh?
I'll keep looking. Someone somewhere discovered that Edward's parents were Mark Kelly & Julia Brennan but this may not be reliable either.
Thank you heaps.
Deb 

[fredwilldo]

Hi Deb,
My Great grandmother was N'th Qld Daniel Kelly's daughter and she told my father that they were related to Ned Kelly son of John (red) Kelly. She said they were cousins as I recall.  Daniel and Ellen are both buried in Charters Towers, N'th Qld. Their graves only have an enamel number to mark them and they are side by side. Ellen died the day Daniel was buried.
We have not been able to work out exactly where Daniel and Edward/Edmond fit in except that they married Ellen and Margaret Pacey so any help will be great.

[iforani]

Hi Fred
So far I haven't been able to find a definite link of your Kellys (& same family, my sister's husband's Kelly's descended from Daniel & Ellen) to Ned Kelly but they were told the same thing. Back then they probably wanted to destroy any connection to him (for fear of retribution from the law) but now it would be nice to claim that heritage. I've had a similar problem with my mother telling me that we are related to Charles Kingsford Smith but so far I haven't turned up anything that validates this, still possible but I haven't found that definitive piece of proof. My suggestion is that you start with your immediate family first to see if anyone has a family bible, letter or something anecdotal passed down that links these families. Have you read what Dundee wrote as this will give you some links to follow up. I have some photos of your family (Daniel & Ellen) as well as siblings but I saved these to my documents rather than to ancestry. I'm now a member of ancestry so when I have time I will follow this up but right now..I am busy..have just become  a grandmother so it will be some days before I can even look at this (as busy with other things too). Keep chasing it up though from your end. You do find interesting things in your journey when you start following the leads given to you by parents or family. I was told that, for instance, my great great grandfather was a French ship's naval doctor. It turned out he was an escaped convict (back in 1851) who had worked for my g g grandmother. Must go, good luck in your quest! 

[iforani]

Hi Fred
I've looked further & unfortunately I can't find any definite connection of the NQ Kellys to Ned Kelly. The Daniel who Dundee was referring to may have been Ned's brother rather than an uncle. John (Red) Kelly did have a brother called Daniel. Trees on ancestry.com have the NQ Daniel & John (Red) Kelly listed as brothers yet no proof has been given to support this (baptismal records etc). Most of John Kelly's siblings were born in Tipperary yet the NQ Daniel Kelly was born in Kildare (though this is not proof that they weren't brothers). Could I suggest that you follow up the leads given by Dundee. You'd need more anecdotal evidence to prove this link. Ask as many of the older Kelly family, the Redheads etc who are still living to glean as much info as you can. I acquired the death & marriage certificates of the NQ Daniel but this proved nothing. If you could find out who Daniel's parents were this would clinch it. John (Red) Kelly's parents were supposedly Thomas & Mary (nee Cody) Kelly. Someone in your family must have a family bible somewhere that documents marriages etc. I've looked at photos of Ned Kelly's family & I can't see any likenesses to the NQ Kellys. In that photo though of Daniel & Ellen (nee Pacey) Kelly, Daniel does look something like John (Red) Kelly but the photos are too small to see much detail of the faces. I did contact the author of the Kelly book, Black Snake, but she didn't know anything about Ed's ancestry. Sorry I couldn't be more help. You might have to start chasing up the parish registers.

[janetfrances]

I have been reading the book They Came From Carlow which is the story of the Pacey family. It does say that there is no evidence to suggest that Daniel was related to Edward. There is some information on Daniels working life and one thing which may be of interest to you is 'in 1862 Edwards second cousin Michael Kelly died at Aphis Creek. Edward Kelly signed a document stating that he was Michaels sole relative and next of kin living in Australia. It would appear then that Daniel was not related to either Edward or Michael. A copy of the clipping has been carefully preserved by Ellen and Daniels granddaughter Mrs Rita Venton.'
My interest in the Kelly family is through Edward Kelly and Margaret Pacey who are my husbands great great grandparents. Janet