William Percy BERRY

[Greaves]

OK. So if Kate and Ellen both died in childhood, that suggests that Annie is one of the surviving 8 children in 1911. So where is she in 1911?.

On a related note, I have just found the birth certificate for Harriet Martha Berry's first daughter, who was born as Ada Godfrey RIDDLE and baptised as Ada Godfrey BARNES. RIDDLE was the the maiden name of Harriet's mother Margaret.

[avm228]

Ellen Hill I think died in infancy, but did Kate Hill?  I thought I had found her later on?

Added: yes I thought she was likely to be the Kate Hill 13 b Woking in service in Guildford in 1891 - RG12/560/32/60.

[Greaves]

You are probably right about the Kate Hill working as a servant, though there is the problem of birthplace. In the 1881 census her birth is in Worplesdon, but in 1891 it is in Woking. My roots are north of the river, so I'm not too sure about geography down in Surrey, but aren't Guildford and Woking some distance apart?

If it is her then that does open up the possibility that Annie has died, though finding her death remains difficult, even by elimination.

There is one possible death in Q3 1894 in Camberwell, but it is for a Annie Hill rather than Annie Berry. Once again my limited geographical knowledge means that I don't know if this is a really possibility. How far off the track is Camberwell?

[avm228]

Woking is abt 2 miles from Worplesdon which in turn is abt 5 miles from Guildford.

Annie Hill's pre-marriage census entries (1881, 1891) give her birthplace as Woking in one and Worplesdon in the other.  Perhaps the Hills lived between the two?

[avm228]

There is one possible death in Q3 1894 in Camberwell, but it is for a Annie Hill rather than Annie Berry. Once again my limited geographical knowledge means that I don't know if this is a really possibility. How far off the track is Camberwell?

Miles away!  Camberwell is urban South London (Lambeth area).  Woking etc further south are now commuter belt but still in "green" Surrey.  Would have been rural then.

Added: 18 miles away according to an online calculator. So still Surrey (as was) but not exactly local to Annie Hill's birth or marriage - but then people died wherever they happened to be at the time

[Greaves]

Shame that it is so far away, as  a death in 1894 would make me happier about the re-marriage in 1898. She would also be the right age at 19, the same as on her wedding certificate earlier that year. I wonder whether it is worth getting the certificate? It wouldn't be the first misguided purchase.

On the same score I still haven't ordered the wedding certificate for Herbert Edward Berry and Annie Hill. Not sure what it would add to the knowledge we already possess. It might make more sense to go for the wedding certificate of Herbert Edward to Rose, to see if he is a widower.

Postscipt - I wonder where Herbert was between 1894 and 1898 and whether Annie was with him. He was in the Reserve, which presumably means he wasn't posted anywhere, though he could have been outside the London/Surrey area. I think I really need to see those Surrey electoral registers.

[avm228]

On the same score I still haven't ordered the wedding certificate for Herbert Edward Berry and Annie Hill. Not sure what it would add to the knowledge we already possess. It might make more sense to go for the wedding certificate of Herbert Edward to Rose, to see if he is a widower.

The certificate for the marriage to Annie would add nothing - it would be the same information as you already have from the parish register, but having gone through several transcriptions (which can introduce errors, as you know from the Chris/Harriet certificate where witness James Berry in the parish register became Thomas Berry on the certificate).

The marriage to Rose - this would potentially be interesting.  Trouble is, the information Herbert gave would not necessarily be true.  If he presented himself as a bachelor that would be suspicious (as we have his earlier marriage).  If he presented as a widower that could be (a) true or (b) a lie intended to cover up bigamy.  So bear all that in mind if you do get the certificate.

Regarding Annie Hill generally, I do think it odd, as I have mentioned before, that the marriage was not noted on Herbert's Army records (he was still serving, albeit at "Home").  Also, Annie was a very young bride; her age would in truth have been 17 rather than the 19 indicated at marriage.  Neither of her parents witnessed the marriage, though that does of itself not mean they were not present.  Herbert, significantly older than Annie, was freshly back from India (returned only 4.5 months earlier) having been overseas many years.

All of which makes one wonder whether the marriage was made in haste and repented at leisure.  Still can't find Annie afterwards, though!

[Greaves]

It wouldn't be the first marriage to be regretted shortly after the ceremony!

I have taken the risk and applied for the certificate for Herbert's marriage to Rose. You never know what it may reveal.

I would really like to know where Herbert and Annie settled after their marriage in July 1894. It could be useful to look at the electoral registers for 1895 and 1896, to see where Herbert was living.

[Greaves]

I think I might have found Annie!

There is a marriage in St Peter and St Paul, Godalming dated 5 Oct 1917 between Annie Miles [Annie Hill] aged 40 born c1877 and William Ernest Smart, also aged 40. Her father is John Hill and his William Smart. She claims to be a widow, he is a Corporal.