Help with William BROWN Convict

[majm]

John BROWN’s  birth 29 Aug 1845, baptism 12 Feb 1846 was at St ANDREWS Scot’s Church
(parents William Brown and Matilda Watson)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTD8-D38
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHJ-P8B 

Mary Jane’s birth 17 May 1848 baptism 4 Aug 1848, St Andrews, parents as William Brown and Matilda Watson)
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTDF-Z6T
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTHJ-6R2
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XT6K-98Q
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X126-272

Cheers,  JM

[Akira01000]

How have you identified your William BROWN to be a convict?

Hi Wivenhoe,

I have identified him through a series of connections to information.

A correlation to his death certificate estimated entry into australia 1828-1843.

The link to the mermaid c1828/1830 arrival and I havent found any information disproving that he wasn't so far.

And family stories of when they were spoken about there would be a hush or a silence when kids would enter the room.

Finally his death certificate has led my up the garden path i.e. Mentions London as Place of Birth c1809.

[Akira01000]

How have you identified your William BROWN to be a convict?

Hi Wivenhoe,

I have identified him through a series of connections to information.

A correlation to his death certificate estimated entry into australia 1828-1843.

The link to the mermaid c1828/1830 arrival and I havent found any information disproving that he wasn't so far.

And family stories of when they were spoken about there would be a hush or a silence when kids would enter the room.

Finally his death certificate has led my up the garden path i.e. Mentions London as Place of Birth c1809.

[Akira01000]

From the Records section of Family Search ..... they seem to have indexed TWO marriages that are likely of interest.  So this seems to be pointing to at least TWO lasses named Matilda WATSON in Sydney in 1843  :)  .... not impossible, but definitely not as likely as finding two males named William BROWN :)  :)

William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 December 1843, St Andrews Parish, Sydney NSW
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZD-LH4

and

William BROWN married Matilda WATSON 4 November 1843, Sydney NSW.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZS-4B7

May I suggest you consider ordering the two images.
 http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=685720.0

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

I have both transcriptions and certificates for the marriage, there are even two volume numbers for the marriage very odd.

Ok there is a witness John Leary whom marks his name with an X on the marriage Registration/event.

There is little or no information on the origins even in the books / for the series of marriages it was a noodle scratcher at the time.

It wasnt offically compulsory until the 1860's to register so to speak with more information.

Cheers
Akira

[Akira01000]

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4

William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843.  His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.

Akira, do you have that document?  If so, what occupation did the Rev record for William please?

Cheers,  JM (I have ummmm..... loads of info on various BROWN families in NSW long before the Gold Rushes)....

Hi JM

William's Occupation was Painter and Matilda's was Pauper in 'benevolent asylum'

Extract from the baptism

The information you have is correct for the marriage, he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843

Cheers
Akira

[Akira01000]

Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871

Do you have Nathaniel BROWN's birth cert (or an official transcription of it) ... if so, does IT give you confirmation of Nathaniel's older siblings? 

And from that 1871 birth cert, what does it tell you about the INFORMANT? (who was the informant, could he/she read/write ..... did they sign or make their mark ..... what was Dad's occupation, where were they living .... was it likely they had a strong accent .... etc)   

The record should give you the Date and place of birth for Nathaniel,and his given name/s and if Nathaniel was present when his birth was being registered. 

It should also state that he was a Boy/Male and his Father's full names (given and surname) and occupation, age and where born. 

Then it should give you when and where  Nathaniel's parents were married, and the details of the previous issue of the marriage ( usually in chronological order) and then Mum's name, maiden surname, age and birthplace.   

Then the name of the informant, their relationship to the baby, and their usual address.    Then the witnesses to the birth, and then the name of the registrar, the date registered and where it was originally registered.

So if you have the NSW BDM cert, then look back at the column headed "Date and place of birth of child" and notice that to the left of that column there is another narrow column.  There is a number in it.  That is the line number of the local register where the birth was initially registered.   

1859/1871    BROWN    NATHANIEL    WILLIAM    MATILDA    SYDNEY 

I think this birth was early July 1871, as per NSW BDM new search engine option.  :)

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Yes I have the transcript, William Brown (Painter) of, Derbyshire england aged 49 in 1871 he was the informant.

Previous issue 3 Males, 4 Females, I Male deceased (Samuel Brown) you are correct also 3 Jul 1871 at thier residence in Sydney.

Cheers
Akira

[Akira01000]

Hi all,

The thing that has been driving me around in circles is this,

On Nathaniel's birth Williams Birth year (c1822) is wrong, Matilda's Birth year (c1839) is wrong and thier marriage year is also wrong(c1848) which I know is not right.

The false information is alarming it has been inconsistent from his death cert even if looking at nathaniels birth record.

Cheers
Akira

[majm]

I have both transcriptions and certificates for the marriage, there are even two volume numbers for the marriage very odd.

It is not at all odd to find more than one entry for a baptism or a burial or a marriage in the era BEFORE civil registration commences.   

Back in Sept 1810, Gov Lachlan Macquarie issued a general order regarding the recording of baptisms and burials, (later extended to marriages).   So that the clergy (of the various denominations) were expected to not just record a baptism or a burial in accordance with their own denomination's Church Laws and Practices, but also to transmit a summary (each quarter) to the NSW Chaplains.    So, say a person (any age, baby to adult) was baptised anywhere within the then territory of N S Wales.... the clergyman would record it in his own register .... and then transmit that to his own denomination's Head Office in accordance with his own Church laws.  But on top of that, he was under civil general orders to also transmit a summary to the NSW Chaplains.    This general order and the practices it developed, continued to operate (more by breach than observance) until the commencement of civil registration.

When the NSW BDM commenced, then many of those Early Church Records came across to the NSW Registrar General's office.    They were NOT put into Volumes until around 1912 and they were not indexed until around 1930.   And the NSW BDM has not ever claimed to hold ALL the records.   

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-2/short-guide-2   (click on the various headings .... baptisms, burials, marriages)

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-4/short-guide-4  (scroll through and click on many headings there too)

And
There were TWO marriages listed at family search for a William BROWN and a Matilda WATSON .... two different dates .... do you definitely have BOTH those records?  two different volumes at NSW BDM so may I please ask which one matches up to which family search record please....

Cheers,  JM

[majm]

Hi all,

The thing that has been driving me around in circles is this,

On Nathaniel's birth Williams Birth year (c1822) is wrong, Matilda's Birth year (c1839) is wrong and thier marriage year is also wrong(c1848) which I know is not right.

The false information is alarming it has been inconsistent from his death cert even if looking at nathaniels birth record.

Cheers
Akira

Please type up all the info from that birth cert .... that way I can try to help you determine if you have the 'right' Nathaniel Brown's birth cert. 

ADD

I have the transcript, William Brown (Painter) of, Derbyshire england aged 49 in 1871 he was the informant.

Previous issue 3 Males, 4 Females, I Male deceased (Samuel Brown) you are correct also 3 Jul 1871 at thier residence in Sydney.

ADD

Children
William George Brown 1843
John Brown 1845
Mary Brown 1848
Sarah Brown 1850
Matilda Brown 1852
Elizabeth Brown 1859
Rebecca Brown 1861
Samuel Brown 1864 -1867
Samuel Robert Brown 1868
Nathaniel Brown 1871

TEN children, 
five male, five female, 1 male deceased.


Cheers,  JM