Author Topic: Help with William BROWN Convict  (Read 13694 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #27 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 02:26 BST (UK) »
Re William George Brown,

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCJ-SS4
William George BROWN, born 17 May 1843, baptised at St Lawrence (likely the temporary building for Christ Church St Lawrence) on 1 Nov 1843.  His parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON.
Extract from the baptism
he was born May 1843 and then Baptised in Nov 1843

So this William George BROWN was baptised at St Lawrence, CHURCH OF ENGLAND with parents recorded as William BROWN and Matilda WATSON and just days before a William BROWN and Matilda WATSON married at St Andrews PRESBYTERIAN.....   I think these details are suggesting that that William George BROWN born 17 May 1843 is NOT a child of the marriage at St Andrews 4 Dec 1843 between William BROWN and Matilda WATSON. 

TEN children listed on the thread v EIGHT children listed on the 1871 birth transcription, with William as the informant. 

Cheers,  JM

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Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 02:46 BST (UK) »
City of Sydney Assessment Books date from 1840s, and transcriptions are readily available online.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books
Have you been able to eliminate some of the many William BROWN chaps using these?

The following comes from the 1870 Electoral Roll for West Sydney.  These are just the many William BROWN chaps.  Each one is a different chap.  You have Nathaniel as born 3 July 1871, so I am looking up this 1870 electoral roll.  (West Sydney includes The Rocks, across to Pyrmont, but not Glebe/Forest Lodge, etc, and it does not include East Sydney or Newtown)

So NSW ER 1870 WEST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN :
freehold at 26 Mount St
residence, at Mount St   
household, 629 Geoge St
household, Barker’s lane
household, off Goulburn St
leasehold, Druid St
household Pitt Street
household, 59 Dixon St
leasehold, 21 Way’s terrace
household, 43 Argyle Street
household Ferry Lane
Household Union Street

There’s also a William E BROWN, household Albert St
And a William BROWNE residence 177 Cumberland St 

NSW ER 1870 EAST SYDNEY  all listings for
William BROWN
residence 33 Bligh St
rooms, Union Club
household 125 Campbell St
freehold 398 Liverpool St, houses Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St
household 15 John St
leasehold 7 Mary St
household Albion St
residence 15 Judge St
household 13 Ryder St
And a William K BROWN residence Albion St
And a W F BROWN, of Bligh St, room Union Club
And a William BROWNE household 27 College St
And a William W BROWNE, of Macquarie St, rooms, Civil Service Club



Cheers,  JM
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Offline Akira01000

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #29 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 02:57 BST (UK) »
City of Sydney Assessment Books date from 1840s, and transcriptions are readily available online.
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/assessment-books
Have you been able to eliminate some of the many William BROWN chaps using these?

The following comes from the 1870 Electoral Roll for West Sydney.  These are just the many William BROWN chaps.  Each one is a different chap.  You have Nathaniel as born 3 July 1871, so I am looking up this 1870 electoral roll.  (West Sydney includes The Rocks, across to Pyrmont, but not Glebe/Forest Lodge, etc, and it does not include East Sydney or Newtown)

So NSW ER 1870 WEST SYDNEY all listings for
William BROWN :
freehold at 26 Mount St
residence, at Mount St   
household, 629 Geoge St
household, Barker’s lane
household, off Goulburn St
leasehold, Druid St
household Pitt Street
household, 59 Dixon St
leasehold, 21 Way’s terrace
household, 43 Argyle Street
household Ferry Lane
Household Union Street

There’s also a William E BROWN, household Albert St
And a William BROWNE residence 177 Cumberland St 

NSW ER 1870 EAST SYDNEY  all listings for
William BROWN
residence 33 Bligh St
rooms, Union Club
household 125 Campbell St
freehold 398 Liverpool St, houses Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St
household 15 John St
leasehold 7 Mary St
household Albion St
residence 15 Judge St
household 13 Ryder St
And a William K BROWN residence Albion St
And a W F BROWN, of Bligh St, room Union Club
And a William BROWNE household 27 College St
And a William W BROWNE, of Macquarie St, rooms, Civil Service Club



Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

Basically both match for differing reasons, he was a painter and a glazier by trade.

William Brown 59, Dixon St (1870 residence matches residential address.

William Brown Liverpool & Victoria sts
offices 207 Pitt St (1870 East Sydney Matches business address)

I hadn't looked at that but with soo many william browns you tend to go alittle cross eyed.

Cheers
Akira

Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #30 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 03:22 BST (UK) »
Our OP has kindly sent me some BROWN BDM transcriptions. 

Name : Nathaniel
Sex  : Male
Born : 3 July 1871,  39 Dixon St, Sydney

Father :  William BROWN, a Painter, born Derbyshire England, and aged 49 years

Married 1848, Sydney (JM notes …. I wonder if that is a mis-read, and 1848 ought to be 1843)

Mother, Matilda Watson, BORN County Armagh, Ireland, and aged 32 years

Previous Issue  3 Males, 4 Females, living, and 1 male deceased.

Informant  William BROWN, father, of Dixon St, (signed)
Present at birth MRS WATSON
Birth registered 11 August 1871, Sydney.


So, was that Matilda’s likely mother who was present at the birth of Matilda’s youngest child?

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline Akira01000

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #31 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 03:33 BST (UK) »
Our OP has kindly sent me some BROWN BDM transcriptions. 

Name : Nathaniel
Sex  : Male
Born : 3 July 1871,  39 Dixon St, Sydney

Father :  William BROWN, a Painter, born Derbyshire England, and aged 49 years

Married 1848, Sydney (JM notes …. I wonder if that is a mis-read, and 1848 ought to be 1843)

Mother, Matilda Watson, BORN County Armagh, Ireland, and aged 32 years

Previous Issue  3 Males, 4 Females, living, and 1 male deceased.

Informant  William BROWN, father, of Dixon St, (signed)
Present at birth MRS WATSON
Birth registered 11 August 1871, Sydney.


So, was that Matilda’s likely mother who was present at the birth of Matilda’s youngest child?

Cheers,  JM

Hi JM,

It may have been her mother as they lived nearby she passed in 1879.

So it matches up :)

Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #32 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 03:39 BST (UK) »
NSW ER 1870 ....
West Sydney has 40 males surnamed WATSON ..... 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline Akira01000

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 03:50 BST (UK) »
NSW ER 1870 ....
West Sydney has 40 males surnamed WATSON ..... 

Cheers,  JM

John Watson was his name and there are a few of his surname and name too .... He passed in 1870, Sydney

Margaret Watson, passed 1879 from memory (need to confirm records)

Offline Neil Todd

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 04:04 BST (UK) »
Hmm slight BUTT in, but..... I still think you have two Little Willies :-X One a C of E the other a Pressie.... :-\

Neil
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Offline majm

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Re: Help with William BROWN Convict
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 02 July 14 04:19 BST (UK) »
LONG POST, several sub-topics ….

So looking at Sydney addresses on the Transcriptions….

1867 23 April 1867 Goulburn St
3 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed.  His parents William BROWNLOW, painter, and Matilda WATSON.  The informant was William Brown, father.  (Yes, that is what the Transcription reads …. Brownlow v Brown )

1871    3 July 1871, 39 Dixon St
Nathaniel BROWN born at 39 Dixon St.,  His father, William BROWN a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as Nathaniel’s mum.

1874  …… 13 November 1874, Dixon St
28 year old John BROWN, succumbed.  His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as John’s mum.  William was of Dixon St.

1876 …. 11 March 1876,  59 Goulburn St
6 year old Samuel BROWN sadly succumbed.  His father, William BROWN, a painter was the informant, and he gave Matilda Watson as wee Samuel’s mum.   The family were at 59 Goulburn St.

…………

May I ask about the two marriages that I mentioned earlier …. 4 Nov 1843 and 4 Dec 1843 ….. Do you have transcriptions of these please…. And if so, which one matches up to which date …. It is entirely possible that there were TWO couples rather than the one….  And I am hoping to sort out if there was just the ONE couple.   

I am suspecting that these Early Church Records for William BROWN had, by 1912 when they were finally bound up, or by 1930ish when the index was finally attempted (by volunteers) that so many different people had thumbed through these BROWN records, that they had deteriorated quicker than most other pages…. that is, simply because of the surname BROWN, these pages were physically in poor condition because of the need to be constantly inspected whenever anyone asked for info about a William BROWN … It is likely to be in the top TEN of popular names in NSW historic records. .   

So, in a practical sense, it is important to consider that the records are actually written in ink, in longhand, and so these ink records are subject to ‘bleeding’ nib markings, fading at different rates due to the variations in the flow and amount of ink, and of course, poorly formed numbers (eg 1848 v 1843) or 32  (age for Nathaniel’s mum when he was born).   So these records themselves, they were indexed by teams of volunteers in the 1930s (they were of course all very familiar with 19thC longhand, as that is their own hand too, and it was still taught in NSW primary schools well into the 1950s) ….   That index is the basis of the index that NSW BDM uses even today.  And the originals of Early Church Records (the ones pre civil registration commencing March 1856) are NOT accessed by either NSW BDM staff or by official transcribers.  They access the 1930s film of those records. 

I guess that what I am trying to convey is that it is unlikely the informant’s provided false information about themselves, rather that the NSW BDM records are less than perfect, and therefore I am suggesting you try to find other ways to obtain those official records…. Hence my suggestions re the  family search option.

Cheers,  JM 
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.