Thomas ROSE - my personal brick wall

[Bherbe]

Hi everyone,

I had thought the same about the Hollins name before. It definitely looks like Hollins - I have stared at it for far too much time But it would have been written later by the certificate service wouldn't it? So I did wonder if they may have mis-transcribed? I have no idea how these certificate copies come about or what they look at to make the copy??? Variants might be Mullins? Collins?

I did also, of course, think that the cert says she was "formerly" Hollins but that could be her birth name or previous married name. Usually it would be the previous married name if there was one, I think? But perhaps she didn't know that??! I wonder if I am stretching here a bit much…

I definitely get the impression that the whole family was a little sparing with the truth - given that Thomas and his "wife" were not married but had 14 children and said on each census that they were married. Interestingly the 1911 which is written by them (I think) rather than the census official does not say married, in their handwriting - it has been added afterwards. There are also big discrepancies in their ages given on the marriage certificate compared to the death & birth certs /census etc. Their son George, my great grandfather, was apparently aware that he was illegitimate and was quite ashamed.

I may be doing them a big dis-service however! I might find that all their details have been lost in a fire or flood or something. As I said previously, the whole 1901 census for Deal was lost (they are not sure where!) so none of them appear in 1901 at all. I had no idea why until I found out about the lost census.

I will look out the information that was gathered from some elderly relatives (not by me) and post it here, in case anyone can see a clue in there that I have missed.

[jaywit]

Bev You said there was a newspaper report that Thomas had served in the West Kent Regiment. Have you thought about contacting the regimental museum to see if they have any records of him?

http://www.museum.maidstone.gov.uk/queensown/

It look like they charge £15 per enquiry.

[Bherbe]

Bev You said there was a newspaper report that Thomas had served in the West Kent Regiment. Have you thought about contacting the regimental museum to see if they have any records of him?

http://www.museum.maidstone.gov.uk/queensown/

It look like they charge £15 per enquiry.

Hi - yes, I am currently making notes to take with me when I go to Kent in a couple of weeks. I have the museum on the list to visit so I will see who I can speak to there. If they think it would be worth it I would gladly pay for the research. Unfortunately when I read up about the regiment it seems to say that personal records will be at the NA IF they still exist. Technically they should for Thomas because he wasn't killed in action BUT I have searched NA and can't find him. I have to say that I wondered yet again if the news article was the full truth! His sons were all definitely men in service and have been fairly easy to locate records for. Thomas (as usual) has not! The article is about them being "A Fighting Family" with 7 sons volunteering for service (article is April 1916).

Jaywit (and anyone else!)  - with your experience would you be able to suggest some good records to aim for if I am to try and uncover Sarah Rose when I go to Croydon/Kent? I am thinking newspapers for any mention/parish registers/poor law records? What do you think would be the best place to start? Thanks again everyone, by the way!

[heywood]

Hi Beverley,

I know I am off track a bit here but I can't see Thomas and Annie's marriage in 1924 
I am just curious.
I can see them in 1891 though.  i was looking for Annie in earlier censuses.

Heywood

[Bherbe]

Sorry for the bombardment!

The notes from family members are:

When Thomas Rose was a young boy (about 14?) he stayed with a Mr. Morris (Abraham?), a jewish family (in Deal, Kent?). They don't know where he arrived from, There was a daughter in the Morris family. Apparently the 'Roses' were originally 'Rosenbergs'. It is believed that Thomas was jewish, a travelling tinker and tinsmith and that "everything he got went up to Jewish traders in London". He was a rag & bone merchant and then a gold and silver merchant. Thomas would often go off to Guildford and the family didn't know why. He dealt in antiques and second hand stuff. His property was auctioned after he died (this definitely happened, I have the news article). When Thomas was in hospital before he died, the family were aware that "some little woman" was after him. The family stopped her visiting him in hospital so that she couldn't marry him!

My apologies for the jumble - these are not corroborated as far as I know but just memories and/or rumours BUT you never know sometimes what might help!

[Milliepede]

Was the 1924 marriage in Canterbury?  There is one Thomas Rose/Annie Lawrence so maybe Ansell was her birth name if she was widowed?

[Bherbe]

Hi Beverley,

I know I am off track a bit here but I can't see Thomas and Annie's marriage in 1924 
I am just curious.
I can see them in 1891 though.  i was looking for Annie in earlier censuses.

Heywood

The registration is as follows:
2a 2220 Apr/May/Jun 1924 Canterbury Thomas Rose / Lawrence

10th April 1924
Thomas Rose age 58 Widower General Labourer 8 Bulwark Road Deal George Rose (deceased) Tailor
Annie Lawrence age 47 Widow 83 Whitstable Road Canterbury Henry Ansell (deceased) ag lab

I am not sure if I mentioned earlier that Annie was previously married so not registered under Ansell.

[Milliepede]

Marriage Dec 1882 Eastry Kent with an Annie Ansell and William Henry Lawrence.

[heywood]

Oh I see. I thought Ansell was the maiden name and at first was wondering if the children were 'yours, mine and ours'. Then I saw them together as a family in 1891.