Emmaville Newspapers Hughes and Riley

[majm]

hello you mention that dad was of Australian aboriginal descent was Doreen jessie riley dad Hercules riley and is he of Australian descent?

Bev

  I did not.   

Please see Reply # 38

Hi,

Sorry, but I doubt that Maud/Madge was of Aboriginal descent and  so I cannot see any reason for Madge needing a Certificate of Exemption.   Madge's mum was not a married woman when Madge was born, and Madge's birth is indexed under Madge's mum's then surname of SKINNER. 

   You may need to contact the NSW State Archives for further information re the issuing of those certificates which I have understood were not part of the administrative system until the mid 1940s ...  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/series/11 

   I am not sure if there are public access restrictions on the following NSW archive listings
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/series/26 covering the Board for the Protection of Aborigines
1916 - 1928  But if you contact NSW State Archives, please do mention that the children were removed from their mum's care following her burn injuries in 1925 and then restored to her in 1928.   



Although unless Doreen and her siblings' Dad was of Aboriginal descent, I think the children's removal and restoration would more likely be in accordance with the then Child Welfare Act 1923, rather than the Aboriginal Protection Act.   



  In an earlier post I noted various pointers to NSW bdm certificates of registration for Madge's birth in 1882, her mum (Amy Ann)'s marriages 1888 and 1930, and back to the 1861 marriage of Amy Ann's parents at Braidwood, NSW in  1861.  Other RChatters had also included similar sightings, and electoral roll sightings too.   

  I had noted that Madge's mum was Amy Ann SKINNER, and that Amy Ann SKINNER's parents were Thomas SKINNER and Catherine WELLS.  I have not looked for further information on Amy's parents, but I can see a possible brother for Amy.   If you were to obtain the official transcription for the birth of Thomas A SKINNER, registered Wellingrove, in 1868, you should be able to find the names and ages of his older siblings, so hopefully it should mention Amy.  It is NSW BDM reference #17669.   

  Here is the 1923 Child Welfare Act http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/cwa1923n21142/

  Here is the 1918 Aboriginal Protection Act
http://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/num_act/apa1918n7342/

For many decades in NSW children were removed from their mothers under the provisions of the Child Welfare Act.  It did not matter what ethnicity for their parents.  If Madge was hospitalised and required long term treatment for her burns, then it is quite possible that the children were taken into 'state care' until she had recovered sufficiently for them to be returned to her care.   But, in my experience, by returning them to her care is indicating they were not removed under the Aboriginal Protection Act.  I may well be wrong, and I am happy to be corrected.   

JM
 

[Bev McCarron]

what did you mean dad was of Australian aboriginal descent in the above

Bev

[majm]

what did you mean dad was of Australian aboriginal descent in the above

Beve

Bev, 

I have NOT said that he was of Australian aboriginal descent.  I cannot see where I have said he was.  I can find where I have suggested that it is unlikely.

I meant that, to me, it seems extremely unlikely that Doreen has an Aboriginal heritage coming from her mother or father, as the children were removed after her mum's hospitalisation and then restored after her recovery .... so NOT part of the stolen generation system... but if you follow up with any enquiries at NSW archives do mention both the two systems operating in NSW in the 1920s ... in respect of removing  children from their mothers.

Do you have copies of any NSW bdm certification for your quest to prove descent from Stolen Generation?

Have you contacted the organisations mentioned throughout this long thread?

It can be very confronting to research without support,  but I am sure there are support services with excellent help if you seek them out.

JM

ADD another post

Hi Bev,

  I doubt Madge had Aboriginal heritage, but I have already given you some suggestions to follow through if you were to consider contacting NSW State Archives.  Here's some other suggestions too : 
  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/aboriginal-resources-guide-nsw-state-archives
  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/aboriginal-resources-overview-records
  https://www.aboriginalaffairs.nsw.gov.au/healing-and-reparations/family-records-service
  https://aiatsis.gov.au/research/finding-your-family/research-step-step/search-records
  https://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/nsw/NE01008

May I mention that:

  At the NSW BDM online index there's an option to check if any birth registration was indexed more than once.  I can see that Doreen's birth registration number is 47584/1914 and it is indexed under both RILEY and DOOLAN.  Doreen's father's given name is not displayed on the index.  The actual registration should give further information, including the name of the person who registered that birth, and also which headings include either or both surnames.

  I have checked my CD for the electoral roll of late 1913, for Emmaville (NSW ER 1913 GOUGH, polling Emmaville) and cannot see anyone with the surname DOOLAN or a variation of that surname, BUT     
**  There are several with the surname HUGHES, and they are residing at Rose Valley. 
**  Perhaps as an aside, there are people listed at Rose Valley with the surname RUMMERY **  (Madge's mum's first marriage was to a Stephen RUMMERY, perhaps these Rose Valley people would be related to Madge's step father). 
** There is just ONE entry for anyone with the surname RILEY. 
It reads :  Maud RILEY, Emmaville, domestic duties. 

Please do remember that Doreen and her siblings were restored to their mum after a separation of less than three years and likely caused by the time needed for her recovery from her burns injuries.  Medicine had not yet discovered penicillin or any antibiotics.  It would have been a long slow and painful recovery for Madge.

JM

[majm]

See also : https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=698348.0



The Armidale Chronicle, 13 September 1919 page 4.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/189272386
In the Emmaville Police Court on Thursday, Mr C.F.M. Travers, Divisional Returning Officer for New England, proceeded against a number of electors for failing to enrol for the Emmaville sub-division.  The following were fined ….. Hercules Ernest RILEY…. 

May I mention that in that era, that many Returning Officers were actively removing names from the electoral rolls if the elector was not a 'White Australian'

NSW ER 1913 CLARENCE, polling at Cangai
Hercules Ernest RILEY, of Cangai, smelter

Birth  & Baptism

NSW BDM online index
Hercules Ernest RILEY, parents as James and Mary Ann RILEY registered Scone district,  #18991.

Familysearch online index
Hercules Ernest, born 23 August 1874, baptised 24 Nov 1874, at St Lukes, C of E, Scone, parents as James and Mary Anne RILEY 
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT8R-ZHD

and

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XT8Q-GW5   note further details about James

I should also mention Hercules Ernest RILEY and Elizabeth Maud RYAN, and their son, William Alfred who was born 31 December 1904 and baptised at Sacred Heart, Inverell on 30 January 1905
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZB-G77
and
NSW BDM Online Index #4179 of 1905  is under RYAN but not under RILEY.

There are births indexed at NSW BDM with the father as Hercules E RILEY in the Inverell district in the ‘right’ timeframe.   

I encourage you to consider obtaining the actual NSW BDM documents, either as the Official Transcription or the expensive ‘real deal’ certificate.  The Official Transcriptions will be typed up, and are well recognised by family history buffs as an excellent option, avoiding having to transcribe the scribbled longhand pen and ink entries in the registers.

PS  I have received your PM,  and I am sure I have provided as much information about Hercules RILEY as possible.   I cannot see anything to confirm he had an Aboriginal heritage, but I do encourage you to contact the NSW State Archives and also support groups for help with your claim.

https://australianstogether.org.au/discover/australian-history/stolen-generations
and
https://healingfoundation.org.au/stolen-generations/
and
https://www.northernstar.com.au/news/indigenous-find-support/2468533/


JM

[Bev Mac]

hi MJ
Do you have any information on Herbert Riley he is Doreen Jessie Rileys father ?
Bev

[Bev Mac]

and was married to maud riley

[majm]

hi MJ
Do you have any information on Herbert Riley he is Doreen Jessie Rileys father ?
Bev

and was married to maud riley

Hi there,


  Maud RUMMERY married Hercules RILEY in 1905.  NSW BDM #1265/1905.
  Doreen's NSW birth registration (Emmaville district) is indexed under TWO surnames - mother as Madge RILEY and as Madge DOOLAN.  NO father's name displayed online index.  #47584/1914. 

Earlier in this thread there's information about Doreen's siblings ... both older and younger, see for example, reply #29.

I cannot find anything to support Herbert RILEY being Doreen's Dad, so I have noticed Col Eckford's post of November 2016 and I am quoting part of Kath6740's post of May 1917.    Doreen was her grandmother, so Kath would be closely related to you.

Hi all
My grandmother name is Doreen Jessie Riley. Her mother's name was Madge Hughes - Madge Riley - Madge Doolan as to which name she was I have no idea. As my grandmother, Doreen birth certificate says father unknown so they weren't married. My grandmother (Doreen) had brothers and sisters  Doreen, Rita, Hazel, Robert, Cecil. These are the children we have found out that are Madge's children Children to Madge:
Gladys May Riley-6th January, 1910-father illegitimate Born In Glen Innes NSW
Ada Florence Daphne Riley-7th April 1911- father illegitimate- Born in Glen Innes NSW
Doris May Riley – 19th June 1912- father illegitimate- Born in Glen Innes NSW                                                                                     Doreen Jessie Riley- 22nd November 1914- father unknown – Born in Emmaville NSW
Rita Pearl Riley- 21st February 1917- father unknown- Born in Emmaville NSW
Hazel Lilly Riley- 2nd August 1918- father unknown- Born in Emmaville NSW
Robert Lloyd Riley- 30th November 1919- father unknown- Born in Emmaville NSW                                  Cecil Keith Riley – 13th December 1920- father unknown- Born in Emmaville NSW.                                   Robert James Riley – February 1922- Not sure about him?
My Grandmother was Doreen Jessie Riley

Born 22th November 1914 in Emmaville NSW
Married: John Elijah Bland on the 1st January 1934. St Paul’s Church EmmaVille NSW/ Church of England
.....

Col Eckford back in November 2016 noted :

The children were sent to the orphanage because their mother madge was badly burnt in a fire and Herbert return to Newcastle.
Children Doreen,Rita,Hazel,Robert,Cecil, birth are be 1914 to 1920.
My grandfather is Cecil the last child birth in 1920 he was fostered out
To the eckford family in Maitland.l don't know the orphanage name.
Doreen Jessie Riley birthday 22/11/1914
Rita Pearl Riley birthday 21/02/1917
Hazel Lilly Riley birthday 02/08/1918
Robert Lloyd Riley birthday 30/11/1919
Cecil Keith Riley birthday 13/12/1920
I don't know anything more thanks

In 1913, Hercules Ernest RILEY was working at the smelter at Cangai.  NO mention of Madge or Maud RILEY there.  (NSW Electoral Roll, CLARENCE, polling Cangai).

Why do you believe Herbert Riley was Doreen's dad?

JM




 

[Bev Mac]

hi  MJ
Is herbert riley the same person as hercules ernest riley?
Bev

[majm]

hi  MJ
Is herbert riley the same person as hercules ernest riley?
Bev

Hi Bev, 

May I suggest you please read back over this thread, it has a great deal of relevant and complicated detail. 

Notice that several contributors show that the births of Doreen and her older and younger siblings were registered and are indexed at NSW BDM.   

  The father's given name is NOT included in the online indexes, and Madge was known by different surnames at different times, which of course suggests there would likely be different fathers for some of Doreen's siblings.   

  Doreen's birth is indexed under two surnames - RILEY and DOOLAN.   This has been mentioned earlier in this thread.   This alternative surname is significant.   You need to consider that as early as Gladys birth (registered in 1910), that Doreen's mum was associating with a Mr DOOLAN and that she was no longer with a Mr RILEY.   So:

  births registered as DOOLAN and as RILEY include
1910,  Gladys M   # 3583, mum as Madge,  Emmaville District
1911, Ada F  #15379, mum as Madge, Emmaville Dist
1912, Doris M #28508, mum as Madge, Emmaville D.
1913, Lilian M, #33972, mum as Madge, Emmaville D
1914, YOUR GRANMOTHER,  Doreen J, mum as Madge, Emmaville D
1917, Reta P, #13251, mum as Madge, Emmaville D
1918, Hazel L, #29852, mum as Madge, Emmaville D

So you may well need to be seeking out info about Mr DOOLAN, and I think you may need to let go of any searching for Herbert or Hercules RILEY.

You need also to consider that Gladys M, born in 1910 died while still an infant.   Her death is indexed online under both RILEY and DOOLAN.  No father's name recorded.  Her mother's given name is recorded as Margaretta.  NSW BDM online index #5228/1910,  Emmaville.   To me, without sighting the actual documents, but relying on the online index alone,  I think Madge and her Mr Riley had separated before Gladys was born, and that Mr Doolan was Madge's common law partner and likely father of children whose births are registered under both RILEY and DOOLAN. 

There's a further death registered in 1913, Emmaville district for a Dorothy M RILEY, mother as Margaretta, NO father's name recorded.  #1681.  The online index only has it the once, only as RILEY, but that is simply because Madge's formal/legal surname in 1913 was still RILEY as there was no divorce from Hercules.

Earlier in this thread I typed up the Electoral Roll entry for Maud RILEY, at Emmaville.  Here it is again, with some other surnames re-checked today as well.   

NSW ER 1913 GOUGH, polling at Emmaville.

Maud RILEY, (of) Emmaville, domestic duties.
NO OTHERS with that surname listed at that polling place.

Annie HERBERT, Emmaville, domestic duties
Joseph Henry HERBERT, Emmaville, miner
Thomas HERBERT, Emmaville, miner
Vera HERBERT, Emmaville domestic duties.
NO OTHERS with that surname listed at that polling place.

NO ONE with the surname DOOLAN or similar listed at that polling place

George HUGHES, (of) Rose Valley, miner
James HUGHES, Rose Valley, miner
Mary HUGHES, Rose Valley, domestic duties
Robert HUGHES, Rose Valley, miner
NO OTHERS with that surname listed at that polling place.

Also, please consider having a read through the following thread :
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=790265.0

JM