Irish research DUNDAS Fermanagh

[dundaskid]

Hi everyone, I have come to a brick wall and wonder if anyone can help. Here's what I know for sure  so far :

My grandmother Ellen Dundas was born to William Dundas & Eva McRoberts, who married in Salford, Manchester in 1897. William was born in Fermanagh, N Ireland, abt 1873. His father's name was James Dundas, Caretaker. I do not know if he lived in Ireland still at this time.
The witnesses to this marriage were William John McRoberts and Mary A Dundas.
William John McRoberts married in the same church in Salford in the same year to Eliza Gosling. He was Eva McRoberts' brother. However after searching, I can only find her birth (Evangeline) and another brother, Arthur King McRoberts. Not William John. Their father was William McRoberts and their mother was Ellen Mallard.
Also, in the same church in the same year, another marriage took place between John Dundas & Annie Hassard. I only stumbled across this by luck whilst looking for the Eliza Gosling marriage, because they had Mary A Dundas and William Dundas as witnesses and lived a few doors away from William & Eva, so too much of a coincidence to not be related.
John was 26 when he married in 1897, his father was Adam Dundas. John has a brother, Robert Dundas, living with him & his wife Annie in the 1901 and 1911 census in Manchester.
William Dundas ( My G/Grandfather ) was 24 when he married in 1897, and his father was James Dundas. So I think James & Adam were perhaps brothers? And John & William were cousins? Not sure who Mary A Dundas is ... maybe a mother to one of them? Or a sister?
I just can't tie it all together. Any help would be greatly appreciated

I know there is a marriage for a James Dundas to a Mary Jane Geddes / Jane Howdin but I remember a couple of years ago i followed these up and discounted them for some reason, but for the life of me can't remember why.

[aghadowey]

Have you ruled out this birth for William John Dundas?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5MQ-B2K

Other children of James Dundas & Mary McCabe:
Catherine (1864) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQG-85F
James (1867) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5YC-Z4R
Mary (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5FF-T5D
Henry (1874) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FP13-7WG
son** (1877) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFP-V8X
Bridget (1878) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR41-PSX

** note: Roosky is family's residence not father's birthplace

If you could give us approx. dates of birth for those Dundas born in Ireland it'd be easier to locate them in other records.

[dundaskid]

Have you ruled out this birth for William John Dundas?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5MQ-B2K

Other children of James Dundas & Mary McCabe:
Catherine (1864) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQG-85F
James (1867) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5YC-Z4R
Mary (1870) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5FF-T5D
Henry (1874) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FP13-7WG
son** (1877) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGFP-V8X
Bridget (1878) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FR41-PSX

** note: Roosky is family's residence not father's birthplace

If you could give us approx. dates of birth for those Dundas born in Ireland it'd be easier to locate them in other records.

Hi, I do remember Mary McCabe ... again this was a couple of years ago. From memory, I think when I followed Bridget, I came to the conclusion that things didn't fit. I chose her as it's more of an unusual name in the Dundas line. Or maybe I left a big question mark over that one. I'll look again at Bridget, and what happened to her.

William Dundas was 24 when he married in 1897, making his birth year abt 1873, which would fit nicely, although as usual on the UK census in 1901 and 1911 he quotes different ages altogether, making it more confusing!

Mary Annie Dundas is on a 1901 census in Salford as a servant, born in Ireland abt 1873, same sort of age as William. HOWEVER I am very excited as I have just seen an entry whilst checking this for Mary Jane Dundas, living as a servant, Ordsell, Salford, aged 60, born 1841, Ireland. This could be their Mum? Never noticed that before. Her husband James could have died... or of course remarried. Could be a red herring of course. the reason I got excited about that entry is because the marriages I referred to in the original post? about the address being a few doors away from each other in the same street? That was Ordsell Lane, Salford ... just re checked census, it does state that she is a widow, and sadly been blind for 2 years

There is also a census in 1861, Salford, Mary Jane Dundas, b 1841 Fermanagh, Ireland, living with parents, James Dundas b Fermanagh 1813 and mother Mary, b 1817 Donegal, ireland. But I am thinking that this can't be the same woman despite birth year and place being the same as she is a widow in 1901, and still has the surname Dundas

[aghadowey]

There's a very sketchy online tree which gives William, son of James Dundas & Mary McCabe, married to a Sarah McCusker so that family can probably be ruled out.

There are other William Dundas births in Fermanagh around the same period but not all births are in the extracted births LDS database.

[dundaskid]

There's a very sketchy online tree which gives William, son of James Dundas & Mary McCabe, married to a Sarah McCusker so that family can probably be ruled out.

There are other William Dundas births in Fermanagh around the same period but not all births are in the extracted births LDS database.

Yes that rings a bell ... I think I ruled it out ... so frustrating. I had never seen the John Dundas and Annie Hassard marriage before yesterday though which made me think I would have more of a chance finding them, with more names to go on, especially with his father being Adam. Now I'm thinking that Adam could have maybe been his second name as there is nothing as far as I can see in the records, BUT there are a lot of Robert A Dundas. If John had a brother Robert, maybe this is the family name running through, and he was called by his middle name Adam instead.  Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[dundaskid]

So I've gone through everything with a fine tooth comb again and cannot work out why I discounted Jane Howdin / Howden last time I researched. Here's the facts I have :

Children of James Dundas & Jane Howden : Mary Anne Dundas   B 3 Oct 1870 Ely Fermanagh
                                                              William Dundas        B 6 Aug 1873 Ferm
                                                              John Dundas           B 28 Mar 1878 Ferm
                                                              Eliza Jane Dundas    B 9 Feb 1876 Ferm

There a few question marks .. ie, if this is the correct family, maybe John's father was NOT Adam at all and just a transcript error, and was James? This would then be clear who Mary A Dundas is on both marriage records as the witness, although she is listed as being born in 1873 on the 1901 census in Salford. So a couple of blips with the theory but explainable? I just can't find an Adam Dundas at all, other than on passenger lists to Canada.

Also, where does Robert come into it... he is definitely living with John and his wife, and listed as brother, but I cannot find a birth for Robert to James & Jane.

John was also listed as 26 on his marriage certificate in 1897 ... which makes this birth date a bit out too ... could have been in fact 20, perhaps the writing was appalling...are there too many holes to be correct?

Another little thing that makes me think I'm leaning towards this theory is : my grandmother was baptised ELLEN JANE DUNDAS ... both names could have come from her grandparents, Ellen Mallard (married to William McRoberts) and Jane Howden (married to James Dundas).

Have found this census which would cover Eliza Jane (Lizzie) and James, the surname is spelt Dundass. Although this doesn't show Mary,William or Robert, ( as they were in Manchester by then) but 2 new names then comes into play, an 18 year old son called David & 22 year old son, James ;-/

Census Years1901FermanaghChurchillBlacksleeResidents of a house
Residents of a house 3 in Blackslee (Churchill, Fermanagh)
Show all information
Surname   Forename   Age   Sex   Relation to head   Religion
Dundass   James   50   Male   Head of Family   Irish Church
Dundass   Jane   55   Female   Wife   Irish Church
Dundass   Lizzie   24   Female   Daughter   Irish Church
Dundass   James   22   Male   Son   Irish Church
Dundass   David   18   Male   Son   Irish Church

[aghadowey]

I think that you are making a big mistake jumping from one possibility to another. There probably is a connection between the various Dundases that ended up in Salford but it may be more a geographical tie rather than a close family one. if you check the inhabitants of the area in the 1911 census you may well find lots of other Fermanagh-born residents.

Also, don't get too worried about ages varying from one record to another- this was quite common up until WWI or so.

You've also neglected to mention the name/denomination of the church where the 3 marriages took place in 1897 in Salford. Or even what religion any of them were.

A simple googling for 'james dundas & enniskillen' brought up a wonder site with lots of details, maps etc.-
https://sites.google.com/site/dundasoffermanagh/john-james-dundas-collection

Going back briefly to some of the names mentioned before-

James Dundas (d,.bef.1901) m.(1869 Enniskillen dist.) Jane Howdin/Howden (c1841-aft.1911).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Churchill/Blackslee/1360437
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Church_Hill/Lenaghan/512308
https://sites.google.com/site/dundasoffermanagh/Home/dundas-of-buggan
1.   Mary Anne (1870) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5Z2-72V
2.   William (1873)
3.   John (1878) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGK2-5YC
4.   Eliza Jane/Lizzie (1876-aft.1911) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGXC-9BD
5.   James (1879 Stratore-aft.1911) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJ5-75J
6.   David (c1884-aft.1911)

James Dundas m.(1871 Enniskillen) Mary Jane Geddes
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_Urban/High_Street/1364976
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Enniskillen_East/Townhall_Street/516143
1.   William Edward (1872) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5D6-7RX
2.   Anna Mary (1875) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGY8-Y24
3.   Sarah Elizabeth Frances (1878) m.(1912 Lisburn) Harry Ernest ___
birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQN-YJM

Dundas isn't that uncommon a name in Fermanagh as you can see by census and other records. Lots of then in PRONI Will Extracts-
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx

Also-
William McRoberts m. Ellen Mallard Millard.
1.   Arthur King McRoberts (1868 Castleshane, Monaghan)
Birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTB-HRH (mother Millard)
2.   Eva/Evangeline McRoberts (1871) m.(1897 Salford) William Dundas.
Birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5KY-SVF (mother Mellert)
3.   William John McRoberts m.(1897 Salford) Eliza Gosling.

[dundaskid]

I think that you are making a big mistake jumping from one possibility to another. There probably is a connection between the various Dundases that ended up in Salford but it may be more a geographical tie rather than a close family one. if you check the inhabitants of the area in the 1911 census you may well find lots of other Fermanagh-born residents.

Also, don't get too worried about ages varying from one record to another- this was quite common up until WWI or so.

You've also neglected to mention the name/denomination of the church where the 3 marriages took place in 1897 in Salford.

A simple googling for 'james dundas & enniskillen' brought up a wonder site with lots of details, maps etc.-
https://sites.google.com/site/dundasoffermanagh/john-james-dundas-collection

Going back briefly to some of the names mentioned before-

James Dundas (d,.bef.1901) m.(1869 Enniskillen dist.) Jane Howdin/Howden (c1841-aft.1911).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Churchill/Blackslee/1360437
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Fermanagh/Church_Hill/Lenaghan/512308
https://sites.google.com/site/dundasoffermanagh/Home/dundas-of-buggan
1.   Mary Anne (1870) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5Z2-72V
2.   William (1873)
3.   John (1878) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGK2-5YC
4.   Eliza Jane/Lizzie (1876-aft.1911) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGXC-9BD
5.   James (1879 Stratore-aft.1911) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJ5-75J
6.   David (c1884-aft.1911)

James Dundas m.(1871 Enniskillen) Mary Jane Geddes
1.   William Edward (1872) birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5D6-7RX
2.   Anna Mary (1875) https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGY8-Y24
3.   Sarah Elizabeth Frances (1878) m.(1912 Lisburn) Harry Ernest ___
birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FRQN-YJM

Dundas isn't that uncommon a name in Fermanagh as you can see by census and other records. Lots of then in PRONI Will Extracts-
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx

Also-
William McRoberts m. Ellen Mallard Millard.
1.   Arthur King McRoberts (1868 Castleshane, Monaghan)
Birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FPTB-HRH (mother Millard)
2.   Eva/Evangeline McRoberts (1871) m.(1897 Salford) William Dundas.
Birth: https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/F5KY-SVF (mother Mellert)
3.   William John McRoberts m.(1897 Salford) Eliza Gosling.

Thankyou for all the census / marriage info at the end there, but if you go through all the things I have quoted already ( all be it in a little jumpy fashion from one thing to another ) I had already seen all of that and stated it through the posts to avoid people going over the info I already knew.

I am simply throwing ideas out there as I think of them ( which is what research is all about isn't it?  trying to think outside the box due to transcript errors / birth dates being wrong frequently) but never make the mistake of thinking things are fact until I have as much evidence as possible. All I was simply trying to point out was how odd that the witnesses were the same / lived in the same street ... same surname... etc. I apologise for not stating the church, but these do come up very easily, as they are all in the same year 1897 Salford, as again I did state in my first post.  I also gave any ages that i was aware of in my first post.

But I do appreciate your time and effort. Thankyou

[aghadowey]

Yes, I realise that some of the information I posted you've already seen but as you said yourself the details which you have posted are a bit 'jumpy' making them hard to follow.

Have you seen the Dundas site I posted? if not, looks like there will be lots of avenues to explore.