Author Topic: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907  (Read 17006 times)

Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #45 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 08:09 BST (UK) »
She says here at Elizabeth Nichols and Margaret Sophia Nichols have both a birth certificate AND an "old church records" reference.

The new NSW website is very confusing, isn't it?  IIRC you can go and look at the actual films for most of those at the state library.  That would be hard to do without those V number.

She's made a note here, she's looked at the film apparently

New South Wales Baptism Transcription (early church records), AO Film 5014 / Reg Ref V1856 4269 121B/1856, 1859. Elizabeth, parents John Nichols and Mary Cameron, born May 26 1856 bapt. 30 January 1859, born Mundooran, father constable, Minister Alexander McEwan.

New South Wales Baptism Transcription (early church records), AO Film 5046 / Vol 1856 4269 121B / 1856. Recorded on Register page headed "Presbyterian Baptisms in the District of the Western Goldfields, County Wellington, Year 1859".  Actual location of the baptism was not stated.

Why would it be film 5014 and also 5046 ?

Offline majm

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #46 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 08:20 BST (UK) »
Most likely reason for the two films would be that two different registers were being used concurrently, one as a 'back up' of the other.  Many of the denominations used (and still use) two registers.   For example, when marrying in a church, the bride and the groom are still often asked to sign three or more registers.   One will be the civil register, and the others will be the parish register and its back up.   The parish registers are often required to be stored separately from each other, both in fireproof safes, so say one would be kept within the Church building, and one at the clergy's manse. 

The Early Church Records are, of themselves, interesting.  Back in 1810, Gov Macquarie issued a general order requiring all the clergy (of all the denominations) to transmit records of baptisms and burials (and later added marriages) that they celebrated back to the NSW Chaplains.   So, at times it may seem that a bdm event occurred at say St Philips C of E, Sydney, when in fact that was simply the NSW Chaplain recording a transmission from a clergyman, including not just the Protestant denominations, but also Roman Catholic ceremonies.    Many of the apparent 'duplicated/triplicated/quadruplicated' entries at NSW BDM 'pre 1856' (ie the V series) are simply the recorded transmissions from the outlying districts.   One of my 1810s ancestors has FOUR entries for her baptism.  So I have four different films AO (NSWSRO) reference nos. for those.   (Add and each has a slightly different piece of 'gleaned' information about either herself or her parents)

Cheers,  JM
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Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #47 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 08:29 BST (UK) »
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I would have anticipated that the question as to who was Miss Elsie NICHOLS would have arisen back when the earlier researcher obtained Sophia’s 1907 marriage certificate and then researched the names of the witnesses on that document. 

I would have anticipated that too.  My brother-in-law's aunt started this in the 1980's.  Things were different before the internet.  It may not have been an issue.  When she started, all of Sophia Toynton's children were still living and she might have just asked them about it.

Also,  the bridesmaid doesn't have to be a witness.  I just looked at a bunch of my own which I have here.  Most of them weren't.

Quote
Perhaps that birth registration would be a document that should be obtained. 

I think so.

Offline Jennaya

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #48 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 09:54 BST (UK) »
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Is it possible that one of William's sisters had a child (Elsie) before she married? This would explain the surname of Nicholls.

If one of William's married sisters had a pre-nuptial child in the 1880's,   you'd think they would be trying to gloss over or obscure this 25 years later,  rather than drawing everybody's attention to it, in the newspaper.     Unless somebody had an axe to grind.

But what about the un-married sister ?     I noticed this one

Birth reg 23209 of 1885,  Helsey M Nichols,  mother Annie A,  father not stated,  district Cassilis.

I would definitely recommend getting this certificate. "Helsey" and "Elsie" do sound the same. Also if Annie did have an ex-nuptial child, it's possible that she stayed home on the farm with the child and raised her (this happened with one of my ancestors). It would also explain her being chosen, out of all the nieces, to be the only bridesmaid. She would have had a closer relationship with her.  It would also explain Annie dying as Mrs rather than Miss. It might be good to get the death certificate of Annie as well.

25 years later the scandal of the ex-nuptial child would be over, and also the newspaper just says she is a niece, not an illegitimate niece.
Regards
Jennaya


Offline majm

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #49 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 10:21 BST (UK) »
I agree with Jennaya, re the 25 years was more than enough time for the gossipers to have forgotten.  Also, on at least one of the public submitted trees, there's a mention that Margaret, the mother, was a mid-wife, so perhaps Elsie was delivered by Margaret.   But as to what became of Elsie after her Aunt Sophia's marriage .... I have not yet found any sightings, sorry.  I have skimmed many of my hardcopy resources, (mostly NSW, and then mostly Central West and Western NSW) but not found any leads.  (Most of my resources are 19th Century, so 1907 becomes 'quite recent' in that sense).   

I can find Mary NEW, at Windora, on the NSW ER 1903 ROBERTSON, polling at Wellington.  But no mention of anyone surnamed NICHOLS there.  (there's a NICOLLS, but different given name).

Sorry,

Cheers,  JM
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Offline Jennaya

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #50 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 10:33 BST (UK) »
Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?

B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.


Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #51 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 10:59 BST (UK) »
Mary Cameron Nichols Madgwick was a midwife,  do you think Margaret was also ??

The Mary New at Windorah is Mary Nichols b. 1864.

She married first to her sister Elizabeth's father-in-law,    and then when her younger sister Margaret Jane died in 1905,   she divorced her first husband and married her dead sister's husband John Allan McLeod.    I think there is another thread here where someone was asking about her.

Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #52 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 11:00 BST (UK) »
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I agree with Jennaya, re the 25 years was more than enough time for the gossipers to have forgotten.

I also agree,  which is why after 25 years,  I'd be avoiding reminding them.


Offline thetowers

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Re: Who was Elsie Nichols ? Bridesmaid in 1907
« Reply #53 on: Tuesday 30 September 14 11:06 BST (UK) »
Could this be Elsie marrying in Queensland in 1920?

B24685 Elsie NICHOLLS married Victor GILES.

How about these,  then ?  Married aged 8 and 5 ?

http://austcemindex.com/inscription.php?id=9168975