Parents of James Glasgow (1799-1862), Ayrshire

[Iandj]

I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to follow one particular line of my family back to my 3x great-grandfather, James Glasgow.  This is in spite of me going down a couple of blind alleys in the past, following the wrong people with the same name.  I now have the evidence, I think, in the form of statutory, OPR and census records to be pretty sure I’m on the right track.

James, my 3x great-grandfather, was born 1 Jun 1799 at Kilbirnie Ayrshire, and baptised on 8 Jul 1799.  He lived and worked as a Cot HLW (a weaver) in one of Kilbirnie’s cotton mills, and he died in the town on 25 Oct 1862.  His OPR birth record states that he was the “natural son of James Glasgow at Nether Miln and Ann Houston at Newton”.  (I presume that ‘Newton’ refers here to Newton Street, Kilbirnie, as it often does in old documents, rather than the settlement at Ayr).

I suspect but cannot prove at the moment that Ann Houston is the person described in the 1841 Kilbirnie census as:

   Ann Houston   65   Montgomeriestone Street   b. Ayrshire,

and in the OPR death record as ‘an old woman’ at Montgomerieston, who died 19 May 1845.  She was probably born either in 1763 (parents: William Houston, Jean Barr) or in 1765 (parents: James Houston, Marion Burns), both at Kilbirnie, although this would make her about 76-78 at the 1841 census, not 65; and it would make her 80-82 when she died.  This isn’t inconceivable, given the description of her as an old woman in the death record. 

However, I’m unable to fathom out exactly who James’s father, James Glasgow Snr, was.  The 1799 OPR birth record gives no occupation for the father, unfortunately.  SP shows birth records for 18 James Glasgows born between 1730 and 1790, but only four in Ayrshire.  Two were at Kilwinning (1736 and 1750), one at Irvine (1744) and one at Kilbirnie (1750).  The rest were born in Glasgow, Midlothian and the Borders.

What’s interesting about the Kilbirnie birth is that this James Glasgow is a son of Dr Robert Glasgow, the Kilbirnie surgeon, and Margaret Allen; and he is a grandson of Rev John Glasgow, minister of Kilbirnie Auld Kirk.  The Glasgow family’s property at Padvenholm adjoined Nether Mill/Miln, so he is a possible candidate.  But strangely in view of the prominence of his forbears, I can’t find any information about him that would help to eliminate him from my search – or not.  The Kilwinning birth in 1736 seems a little too early but the 1750 Kilwinning one and the 1744 Irvine birth are both plausible, as the settlements are not too far away from Kilbirnie and the father would be just 48-55 years old in 1798-99.

I just don’t know where to go from here to find James Glasgow Snr, so I’m hoping that maybe a fresh pair of eyes can suggest new ways to progress this.

Iandj

[aglasgow000]

Hi Iandj,

I stumbled on your post when looking for one of the countless James Glasgows. It's a tradition that still holds to this day with most of the males in my family being John or James.

Newton may refer to Kirknewton, as there are several Glasgows from there, the Newton name is also sprinkled through.

I don't have much for your particular search, but I have a lot of information on Kilwinning, Kilbirnie, etc. The four in Ayrshire were likely cousins who knew each other, with the others being more distant cousins

Paterson reports that Rev. John Glasgow, Minister of Kllbirnie from 1688 to 1721.  "had fourteen children; but there is no tradition on any of them save his son" Dr Robert Glasgow of Puddockholm (aka the Waters) (bpt 17.10.1693, surgeon at Kilbirnie) m. (15.12.1726) Margaret Allan of Ladesyde

Dr Robert Glasgow had a brother James, shipwright in Irvine. Capt James Glasgow, Irvine shipmaster, mentioned 1740, maybe burgess (ayrshirearchives). From “Decennial indexes to the services of heirs in Scotland 1700-1859”:

Johns grandfather 1583, Robert Glasgow also married a Jonet Conynghame, Her family descended from the Earls of Glencairn.


Additionally I believe John Glassford of Dougalston and Whitehill (1715 – 27 August 1783) Scottish Tobacco Lord, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glassford) may be descended from Reverend Joh "Jonat" Glasford who appears as Minister of Kilbirnie, From 1614 to 1629.

His son 1671 James Glassford (https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Glasgow-1094), marries Margaret Semple. who were closesly intertwined with the Spreulls (his presumed grandmother). Additionally on the birth records, the name switches from Glasgow to Glasford/Glasfoord/Glasforde.

There is also an Alexander Glasgow who marries a Agnes Cunninghame in 1773. This pattern seems to be found in clusters with Sempill/Spreull, Dunlop, Kirkpatrick and various others; with these names also appearing as elders of that area; and record of several other graduates likely in positions for the church 1635 Archibaldus Glasgua M.A,          1690,Nathaniel Glasgow M.A.

Taking us back to 1394 William de Glasgu, priest, was gifted the abbot and convent of Kilwinning& Kelso in 1394, with John Glasgow and William Glasgow of Cavers, Roxburghsire parish notably surviving a shipwreck

Between 1200-1700 the Glasgow's appear to have been devoted covenanters presbyterians - following Calvinistic theology and Gameronian principles, with John Glasgow and William Glasgow of Cavers, Roxburghsire parish norrowly escaping their enslavement in the fatal shore wreck of the croune (10, Dec, 1679); leading to the lack of records for this period;

Much of the history obscured by the anti-Comyn writings of Scottish annalists such as John Fordun or literary historians such as Buchanan who, forgeries and even voluntary name changes such as William Glass (1786), Founder of the Remotest Community in the World. Born Kelso Born William Glasgow in Kelso. He set up the rules for the people living on Tristan da Cunha. They are still the basis of the Tristan da Cunha society of today. The council decides how to spend the communal money earned from the crayfish exports, and ensures that a member of the family with the lowest income gets the next job to come up. Everybody works for the common good. Everybody helps each other. Everything is shared; there is no private property.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Space:Glasgow_Name_Study

[Forfarian]

James, my 3x great-grandfather, was born 1 Jun 1799 at Kilbirnie Ayrshire, and baptised on 8 Jul 1799 .... His OPR birth baptism record states that he was the “natural son of James Glasgow at Nether Miln and Ann Houston at Newton”.  (I presume that ‘Newton’ refers here to Newton Street, Kilbirnie, as it often does in old documents, rather than the settlement at Ayr).

As the record is in the parish register of Kilbirnie, yes, Newton will be in the parish of Kilbirnie.

I just don’t know where to go from here to find James Glasgow Snr, so I’m hoping that maybe a fresh pair of eyes can suggest new ways to progress this.

See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=825881.0

[Iandj]

Thank you for your replies, AGlasgow000 and Forfarian.

By coincidence, I have been discussing this very recently with someone who descends directly from Dr Robert Glasgow (1693-1766), the Kilbirnie surgeon and Chamberlain to Viscount Garnock. As you rightly say, Robert Glasgow and his wife, Margaret Allan, had many children - I can only find evidence of 13 of the 14 mentioned by Paterson - including Dr Robert Glasgow Jnr (1747-1827), who went off to the Virgin Islands as a surgeon before returning to Ayrshire and acquiring Mountgreenan. Another of the sons was James (1750-c1803). Both Robert Jnr and James are known to have fathered illegitimate children; according to his will, Robert Jnr left money to his brother James's two reputed natural sons, Robert and James, although I believe that this part of the will was later successfully challenged by someone. However, my friend and I now believe that the James Glasgow who was the illegitimate son of James Glasgow was, in fact, my 3rd g-grandfather. To try and establish some evidence for this, we are currently working through our potential mutual DNA connections.

Speaking of DNA connections, I have now established connections with a number of people who also descend from my 3rd g-grandmother, Ann Houston, following her marriage in 1802 to James Orr. What's interesting about this is that their eldest son, Robert Houston Orr, emigrated to the US and played a significant role as a captain in the Mormon migration of handcart pioneers from Utah to California.

Finally, thank you to Forfarian for your comments about Kirk Session records. Though I am very familiar with KS records (my dad was a Presbyterian minister), I am struggling at present to find the ones for Kilbirnie that I need. I will probably have to visit SP in Edinburgh once lockdown is over, as I see many seem to be located there.

Regards
Ian

[Forfarian]

Finally, thank you to Forfarian for your comments about Kirk Session records. Though I am very familiar with KS records (my dad was a Presbyterian minister), I am struggling at present to find the ones for Kilbirnie that I need. I will probably have to visit SP in Edinburgh once lockdown is over, as I see many seem to be located there.

As I said in the article to which I sent you the link, most of the surviving KS records are held in the National Records of Scotland.

A quick look in the online catalogue reveals that the Kilbirnie ones are indeed there, reference CH2/208. There are some gaps, but the volume covering 1796-1842 is there.

You will indeed need to visit the NRS (not the SP Centre) or one of the local archives which has access to the digitised KS records. The article I wrote lists those, but may not be exhaustive.

[aglasgow000]

Thank you for your replies, AGlasgow000 and Forfarian.

By coincidence, I have been discussing this very recently with someone who descends directly from Dr Robert Glasgow (1693-1766), the Kilbirnie surgeon and Chamberlain to Viscount Garnock. As you rightly say, Robert Glasgow and his wife, Margaret Allan, had many children - I can only find evidence of 13 of the 14 mentioned by Paterson - including Dr Robert Glasgow Jnr (1747-1827), who went off to the Virgin Islands as a surgeon before returning to Ayrshire and acquiring Mountgreenan. Another of the sons was James (1750-c1803). Both Robert Jnr and James are known to have fathered illegitimate children; according to his will, Robert Jnr left money to his brother James's two reputed natural sons, Robert and James, although I believe that this part of the will was later successfully challenged by someone. However, my friend and I now believe that the James Glasgow who was the illegitimate son of James Glasgow was, in fact, my 3rd g-grandfather. To try and establish some evidence for this, we are currently working through our potential mutual DNA connections.

Speaking of DNA connections, I have now established connections with a number of people who also descend from my 3rd g-grandmother, Ann Houston, following her marriage in 1802 to James Orr. What's interesting about this is that their eldest son, Robert Houston Orr, emigrated to the US and played a significant role as a captain in the Mormon migration of handcart pioneers from Utah to California.

Finally, thank you to Forfarian for your comments about Kirk Session records. Though I am very familiar with KS records (my dad was a Presbyterian minister), I am struggling at present to find the ones for Kilbirnie that I need. I will probably have to visit SP in Edinburgh once lockdown is over, as I see many seem to be located there.

Regards
Ian

Hi Ian,

I popped over to Kilwinning Parish yesterday and got some fresh photos - and tidied up this section which may aid your search;

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Glasgow-Descendants-1027

Interestingly, a Robert Glasgow in 1674 is listed as son of James Glasgow & Janet Orr in Campbeltown, Argyll, Scotland.

I also have my YDNA and GEDMatch details here if it helps

Family Tree DNA Y-DNA Test 111 markers, haplogroup R-M269, FTDNA kit #B580327, MitoYDNA ID T12577

23andMe , GEDmatch FA7172012