Author Topic: A tricky problem needs help  (Read 2364 times)

Offline Trees

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A tricky problem needs help
« on: Thursday 23 October 14 13:29 BST (UK) »
For well over twenty years i have been searching for the answer to a tricky problem now I wonder if the answer is near.
Catherine Sharp married 12 Oct 1856 in Berwick upon Tweed no father was given
1841 no Catherine Sharp was found but HO107/ 844/ 5 fo52 p 2 has a Catherine LOGAN living with George and Margaret Sharp and again in 1851 HO107/2421 fo345 p2
No connection with the Sharp's and the child have been found but this baptism at Holy Trinity appears to be her
6 May 1838 Catherine Dau of James / Jessie LOGAN Greenses, Berwick Husbandsman
and her birth certificate:gives Father   James LOGAN a farmer Mother   Jess EDMESTON
Note not formerly Edmeston
I have found that Jess or Jessie could be Jane Janet or Jean in the Borders.
I have found a Jane Edmeston baptised in Berwick upon Tweed in 1813 but she definitely went to Canada with her parents and siblings in 1832 and lived there the rest of her life so its not her Neither is she the Jane Logan who died in Berwick upon Tweed in 1840 she was the wife of John Logan a mariner b about 1809
we noticed a Jane Edmeston living with a daughter b about1810 in Berwick upon Tweed in 1841 HO107/ 844/ 1 fo54 p21 This turned out to be Janet nee Baikie widow of Samuel Barker Edmeston she did not have a daughter Janet so we thought she was red herring but I looked at her husband a  bit more( His history has proved very interesting) Reading his will we find he has left a legacy to a Jean Hathaway for her daughter Jean born about 1813
IS THE CHILD our Jessie? How can I prove it she is the strongest candidate we have so far found and needs to be eliminated or proved. But I can find no other mention of her or her mother
What happened to Jean Hathaway?
Where was little Jean Born? I have looked for hathaway and Edmeston baptisms  1813+- 5 and failed to find her
Can anyone see anything more about her?

I will be so happy to have any help with this problem  as this is a real stopper on the family tree
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.

Offline venelow

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 26 October 14 04:20 GMT (UK) »
Hi Trees

I note nobody else has commented so I'll wade in with my two (or three) cents.

The Logans, Edmestons and Hathaways aside, I have a problem with the identity of Catherine Sharp. I do not see that Catherine Sharp who married Henry McMullen could be the same person as Catherine Logan (who may or may not be the daughter of James Logan and Jess Edmeston) who was living with George and Margaret Sharp in 1841 and 1851. It is possible that she was their grandchild but since Catherine could not give a father's name when she married it would appear that she was illegitimate and therefore her legal name would be the same as her mother's.  It makes no sense that someone registered with parents called Logan and Edmeston would call herself Sharp.

Not every birth was registered in the early days of Civil Registration and neither did every one get their child baptized right away, so it is possible that Catherine Sharp's mother moved away or married someone who was not Catherine's father. By the time of the 1841 census Catherine could be in a new family group with an entirely different name. Not every one was super truthful to the enumerator, if he put all the kids down with the head of the household's surname no one felt compelled to put the record straight.

However when getting married she would be supposed to marry under her legal name, which should be the same as her mother.

Another scenario; Maybe Catherine cannot be found in 1841 or 1851 because she was not in England, Scotland or Wales but had returned to Ireland. Possibly Henry had met her in Ireland. Maybe she was the daughter of someone he served with.

Have you found a marriage or death for Catherine Logan? Have you found a death for James Logan or Jess Edmeston Logan? Have you found any records that explain why Catherine Logan is in the care of George and Margaret Sharp?

Could Catherine's name be Catherine Logan Sharp? The enumerator misunderstanding when the Sharps stated her name was Catherine Logan. Thus possibly meaning the her father was called Logan and her mother was a Sharp in the classic way of signalling the father's name for an illegitimate birth.

Just a few thoughts re your problem.

Venelow






Offline Trees

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 26 October 14 12:00 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for your reply . You have out lined the many ways we thought when we first started looking for Catherine Sharp ( its well over twenty years ago)
What we know to be 100% accurate
marriage certificate:
District / No.   Berwick      No. 188
Marriage at   the High Meeting House
in the County of   Berwick & Northumberland
When      12th October 1856

Name      Henry McMULLIN         Catherine SHARP.
Age      31            22
Condition      Bachelor            Spinster
Rank      Sergeant 91st Foot         Domestic Servant
Residence   Barracks, Berwick upon Tweed   Woolmarket, Berwick upon Tweed

Father      James McMULLIN
Profession   Shoemaker

Married in the   High Meeting House
according to   the rites and ceremonies of the Church of Scotland James A Miller Minst
   George Turner Registrar
in the presence of   George WILSON
(Witnesses)   Jane WILSON

This indicates her birth was in 1834
1871 census RG10/ 859 fo48 p16 she was 34 born Berwick upon Tweed suggesting a birth year of 1837
1881 census RG11/ 832 fo 33 p 18 she was 44  born Berwick on Tweed again giving a birth year
1837
1891 RG12/1361 fo44 p23 she was 53 ie born 1838
1901 RG13/1637 fo 83 p47 she was 62 ie born1839
1911 RG14/9772 sch144   (RG14PN9772 RG78PN515 RD189 SD1 ED9 SN144) now 74
1931 Qtr 1 death McMullen    Catherine    92    Epping 4a 538

She is always from Berwick Upon or On Tweed so I don't think she was born in Ireland or Scotland

So I don't think it wrong to assume she had increased her age on marrying  and really was born around 1838 in Berwick upon Tweed. We went to the register office and spent time with the registrar who concluded the only possible Catherine registered in Berwick was Catherine LOGAN

We have not found any other evidence of  the Sharps having a daughter or indeed any children so Catherine was not a grand daughter. The Sharps returned to Sunderland leaving Catherine in Berwick would they have done that if she was truly a relation and why put her as a servant?
1841 HO107/ 844/5 fo51 p 1
1851 HO107/2421 fo345 p 2

It appears that Catherine was married at 17 or 18 to a man of 33  she hid her age to save having the problem of being a minor and not having family to give concent She was probably known to have been the Sharps girl so she conveniently used their name.

No further information has been found about Jess or Jessie Edmeston
There is a James LOGAN born in Berwick on Tweed in 1813 who was living in Norham with a wife Isabella on censuses 1841 and they are on later censuses in various Nothumberland villages. He is an agricultural worker Catherine LOGAN's father was a farmer on her baptism and a husbandsman on her birth certificate He is a possible for Catherine's father though no marriage for James Logan and Isabella has been found to determine his marital status on marriage If he was Catherine's father it would be reasonable to think Jess was about the same age
If catherine was the daughter of a fellow soldier she would know her father's name so I discount that idea
She is on two censuses as LOGAn so i doscount the idea of her name being Logan-sharp I can see it on one but not two censuses.
I feel sure our Catherine really is the  Catherine LOGAN living with the Sharps Hence the hunt for Jess /Jane /Janet/Jean Edmeston born about 1813.However I am keeping an open mind and ready to be PROVEN mistaken We just want to get to the truth of her birth its bad enough Henry being from Ireland and so far elluding us. We know he was from Bellaghy, Co. Londonderry, N Ireland and his father was james a shoe maker from Henry's military papers but so far we can't find any more about his birth or parents.
I look forward to anyones thoughts on what is a very tricky problem
Trees ???
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.


Offline jennywren001

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 26 October 14 15:39 GMT (UK) »
A couple of things...have you found Catherine on the 61 census - I couldn't see it in the list.  Have you been up and down the Woolmarket on the 51 census to see if anything jumps out?  On the 61 there's a Jane Wilson age 72, born Scotland, living in the Woolmarket just wondered if she was the witness at the wedding? When does the first child arrive?

Jen








North East Scotland above the Tay...
JOLLY, Johnston,Thom, Rae, Davidson, Fielding, Sherret
FEARN, McKenzie, Stirling [brick wall], Robb, Wilson, Stott
RUSSELL, Fullerton, Christie, Cochrane, Davidson, Coutts, Easton, Scott
FRASER, Henderson, Noble, Mundie, Goodall, Thain, Neish, Moir

Offline Trees

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 26 October 14 16:05 GMT (UK) »
Henry was in the Army and in 61 they were in Ireland their first child was born in 1857  Pembroke Dock on the way to Ireland( her birth is in the Index of Regimental Registers 1761-1924 Although the 1871 census says she was born in Weedon and her brother James in Surrey we know James was born somewhere in Ireland in 1859 (another missing birth we know it was10 Mar 1859 Ireland from his military records) The rest of their children were born in Kingston Upon Thames.
I was wondering if she had gone into service when the Sharps returned to Sunderland and if the witnesses were her employers
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.

Offline Trees

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #5 on: Monday 27 October 14 09:51 GMT (UK) »
I've looked through the censuses for Berwick for all Sharp and for all Catherine born 1837+- 5
i got excited when I found a Catherine Edmeston  but she turned out to be the sister of a Mark Edmeston of Spittal
But george and Janet wilson are keeping a hotel in the road that continued on from Woool market so It is very probable that Catherine was working for them and they witnessed her marriage. She probably went to them with the Sharps so was known as Sharp rather than LOGAN
I wonder would school records be useful and if any exist but it wasn't compulsory to attend school  until 1870 so may be not going to help
Why did the Sharps go back to Sunderland  umm that needs chasing
Trees thinking aloud
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.

Offline venelow

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #6 on: Monday 27 October 14 19:50 GMT (UK) »
Hi Again Trees

Thanks for filling in the marriage information. I have a couple or three questions. Have you seen the original entry (film thereof) as well as the certificate. Was it by license or banns? - (not sure if that applies to the Church of Scotland) If a license have you been able to locate it? Was there a Bond? Were the Board of Guardians involved since she was pregnant. (There seems to be quite an archive for the Berwick Board of Guardians.) Did Henry have to get permission to wed?

All these things may have generated some paperwork that might help prove your theory or provide another answer. Did she sign her name or did she make her mark? That would indicate a level of education. Have you found Catherine Logan or Catherine Sharp witnessing any marriages at Berwick? I agree that it appears she has upped her aged a bit due to circumstances but that, of itself, does not prove she was Catherine Logan.

I do sympathize with the problem because nearly every researcher gets them and sometimes the records needed to build a compelling case are just not there.

Venelow

Offline Trees

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #7 on: Monday 27 October 14 23:00 GMT (UK) »
Lots to think about there I can't remember if we did look at the register must check back through our notes. we are hoping to go back to Berwick before Christmas just need a few things to fall in place so you have given me a few things to look out for. I know as a Sergeant Henry was entitled to marry and have his family with him hence the journey to Ireland as a family. Agreed her age is not a definite indication that she was Catherine Logan but so far she is the best candidate. I really have a lot of digging to do in North umberland I need to find what happened to the Sharps if she was Catherine Logan why were they not involved in the marriage.
Don't think it was a license marriage as that would have been on the certificate.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.

Offline Trees

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Re: A tricky problem needs help
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 01 November 14 12:45 GMT (UK) »
Just back from a business trip sorry for disappearing.
I now know the Wilsons were keeping the Red Lion Hotel so I think it very likely Catherine was an employee there I wonder was it a popular drinking place for the military and that is where Henry and Catherine met  I am now questioning if Henry was infact the father of the first child I need to send for her birth certificate to get the actual date of birth. I have been checking on the movements of his unit it is possible she was already with child when they met did the non conformist Sharps tell her "never to darken their Door again" when they knew of the pregnancy. Is that why they don't feature in the marriage or had they already left Berwick when she went into service.I wish I knew what happened to them There are deaths in Sunderland that could be them but two many to send for all the certificates.
There are we know other Sharps in Berwick Three sisters Elizabeth (born 1801), Agnes(1803) and June(1811) The youngest would have been 27 when Catherine was born so it is possible for her to be her mother but in that case why isn't Catherine Sharp on the censuses with these Sharp ladies? Agnes was married by 1841 and the other two are with her in 1851.In 1841 Agnes and her husband James Knox appear to be living with an Alex Sharp( born between 1798-1801) and June Sharp of course no relationships are given so were Alex and June siblings of Agnes or husband and wife either way there is no baby Catherine in the household so that leaves Elizabeth from the 1851 census she was unmarried and born in Berwick in 1801 so she would have been 37 at the time of Catherine's birth i would think a bit old for having a base child but not impossible so where was she in 1841? and again where was little Catherine? There is an Elizabeth with three children and no husband about 15 miles south of Berwick no Catherine And there is an Elizabeth a servant in Newcastle Upon Tyne who could be the sister in 1851. There just isn't a Catherine Sharp to be seen yet she is consistently from Berwick  upon tweed and born 1827/38  on all censuses after marriage. 
I still favour Catherine Logan to be Henry's wife
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

For details of my research interests please see
mcmullin.me.uk
Also read the children a story from Story Time at the same web site.