Author Topic: Re Birth dates - general  (Read 2437 times)

Offline Airdriehunter

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Re Birth dates - general
« on: Thursday 01 January 15 01:29 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Can anybody tell me why there is so much of a difference. 

Patrick Hunter census 1901 & 1911 birth date was 1861 - if married  in 1880 would have been only 19 years old when married.
Marriage record 1880 states he was age 24 (definitely the same Patrick) -therefore born 1856??
Should I be looking for a birth date of 1861 or 1856
Possible birth date record 1853 - a possible match or definitely someone else?
Thanks in advance.


Offline AMBLY

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 01 January 15 02:32 GMT (UK) »
In relative terms, the age discrepancy Marriage/Census is not so major.

The year of birth is calculated by the declared age.  So it may depend on when a Birthday was - and if on the Census or marriage he  declared the age he technically was , or the age he was about to turn or had just turned from, especially if his Birthday was close to either event.  Then  on the marriage, he may have amended his true age  if for whatever reason he wanted to present for example, as over the age of Majority or as closer to the age of his bride. The fact his age is steady 1901-1911 may point to that being the true (or truer) age.   But then again, it may not!  Did he himself fill out the Census forms?

There are so many reasons why; some intentional, some mistaken truth or just plain mistakes  - it is  very, very  common to see this apparent disparity in age.  Hard to imagine too, but some people actually didn't know their proper age  - or their family (spouse, children)  didn't.

I'm guessing they are Irish Census, so no going back before 1901?

Settling 1861 with a 1853 birth record, is a bit harder to reconcile though without there being other factors to consider (parent's names, place of birth, address of birth, etc)

Cheers
AMBLY
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 01 January 15 10:21 GMT (UK) »
Such differences in records, especially in Ireland, are not at all uncommon even up till fairly recently. Birthday celebrations didn't take place so the milestones (1st, 13th, 16th, 18th, 21st, etc.) weren't there to remind people of their exact age.
My father-in-law, born early 1900s, only remembered that he was born in early January (never the day and year) which didn't help when he was in his 90s and a doctor would ask his birthdate to test his memory!
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 01 January 15 11:02 GMT (UK) »
It's not unusual.
I've one "lady" who adjusted her birth date to older when as a very young girl she first married, then, with later, younger partners, it adjusted to be a bit younger than however old they were, then in old age it went upwards again! Her age on death, provided by grandchild is out by about 7 years, but fortunately the baptism of her to known parents also records when she was ( really, unless she fooled the minister at a few days of age) born.
Rounding up and down of ages at census didn't help - and then  as already said, a lot of people didn't know their ages - they'd know they were "older than Sally and younger than Dickie", but not much more than that. Birthdates, as in month and day, too were in pre-registration days often a matter of guesswork or ignorance of the real date.
Isn't that all part of what makes this so compulsive?
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)


Offline jbml

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 03 January 15 09:10 GMT (UK) »
As the others have said, this is not all that great a discrepancy.

There could be any number of factors in play here.

First, you need to remember that the Census did NOT ask for a year of birth ... it asked for an age. The online sites that provide census information generally subtract the declared age from the year of the census to give a "year of birth". BUT ... most censuses were taken only about a quarter of the way through the year (late march / early April ... although 1841 was not until June ... but adults' ages in the 1841 census are supposed to have been rounded down to a multiple of 5 years, although this didn't always happen). This means that for about three quarters of the population, they were actually born the year BEFORE the year computed in this manner (take me as an example - I was born in September 1967 so the 1971 census will show me as 3 years old, and this manner of computing will give you a birth year of 1968 when in fact I was born the year before).

Secondly, people in the past didn't tend to count their ages obsessively in quite the same way we do. In the days before the Welfare State and automatic qualification for all sorts of benefits at age 60 or 65, nobody really needed to know their ages after they had reached the age of majority (21). It wasn't a relevant piece of information to them. Every ten years, however, the head of their household was asked to declare their ages for the purpose of the census, and he or she did the best they could in the circumstances. Sometimes their estimates could be egregiously inaccurate. In general, I discount ages in the 1841 census (except for under-15s, whose ages are supposed to be precisely stated rather than rounded down) and work on the assumption that apart from this the first census in which a person appears is LIKELY to be the most accurate as to age. There are exceptions, however. If a person is a servant, for instance, then there is a good chance that their age has been filled in without reference to them, and may be inaccurate. The same applies to places of birth for servants ... the employer is far less likely to know for certain than the parent, so prefer the evidence of a census return completed by the parent rather than one completed by the employer.

Thirdly, minors (that is, those under 21) required parental consent to marry. If the parental consent was not forthcoming, then they might go somewhere else to get married and lie about their ages. My great grandparents certainly did. They were both born in 1891, they were married in 1910, and their marriage certificate records both as being 21 years of age. They married in a different registration district from the one where both their families lived. They both gave the same address on the marriage certificate ... and address which is never again encountered in the documentary record relating to either of them, and which looks like an accommodation address where they lived for just sufficiently long to satisfy the residence requirement. It was a register office marriage, and both witnesses were from the bride's family. I somehow think there may have been an issue with the consent of the groom's father ...

I think those are the three main factors that are in play. The end result is that you shouldn't be too worried about minor fluctuations in apparent years of birth between one recorded age and the next. We all have them in our trees.
All identified names up to and including my great x5 grandparents: Abbot Andrews Baker Blenc(h)ow Brothers Burrows Chambers Clifton Cornwell Escott Fisher Foster Frost Giddins Groom Hardwick Harris Hart Hayho(e) Herman Holcomb(e) Holmes Hurley King-Spooner Martindale Mason Mitchell Murphy Neves Oakey Packman Palmer Peabody Pearce Pettit(t) Piper Pottenger Pound Purkis Rackliff(e) Richardson Scotford Sherman Sinden Snear Southam Spooner Stephenson Varing Weatherley Webb Whitney Wiles Wright

Offline jbml

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 03 January 15 09:13 GMT (UK) »
Oh yeah ... and if the age in a census is recorded as "0 (3 days)" as I have in one of my ancestral census entries ... you can generally accept this as reliable evidence  :)
All identified names up to and including my great x5 grandparents: Abbot Andrews Baker Blenc(h)ow Brothers Burrows Chambers Clifton Cornwell Escott Fisher Foster Frost Giddins Groom Hardwick Harris Hart Hayho(e) Herman Holcomb(e) Holmes Hurley King-Spooner Martindale Mason Mitchell Murphy Neves Oakey Packman Palmer Peabody Pearce Pettit(t) Piper Pottenger Pound Purkis Rackliff(e) Richardson Scotford Sherman Sinden Snear Southam Spooner Stephenson Varing Weatherley Webb Whitney Wiles Wright

Offline healyjfch

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 03 January 15 10:23 GMT (UK) »
Watch out for second and third children with same names in a family.
When a young child passed away, that child's name could be reused for next baby born.

Some people increased their age on Census 1911 to get Old Age pension.

I have seen Baptismal register that has 2 dates written, Birth date and Baptismal date
The baby was usually less than a week old when Baptised 1830's
 

Offline Airdriehunter

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Re: Re Birth dates - general
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 03 January 15 15:09 GMT (UK) »
Thankyou everyone for the useful information.  I think I can conclude that I may have no idea of a birth date. Both census have the same birth date and wife also has the same year -1861.  Marriage points out that they where both 24 when married in 1880 , which gives Patrick Hunter and wife Margaret Haughey birth dates in 1856.  Both of their parents were present so I can not see why they would hide their age.  First child was born after that.  Census implies born in Co. Armagh and wedding was a Catholic wedding in Newry.  Only birth record around Newry Northern Ireland for a Patrick Hunter is 1864 that I can find. Which would mean he was 16 when he had first child.   Parish records in Newry said they had come from Scotland.  So maybe this is correct information.  The census maybe relates to where they were living at the time and not where he was born. I will keep digging.
Kind regards

Offline Airdriehunter

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Re: Re Birth dates - general - thanks sorted
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 14 January 15 22:48 GMT (UK) »
Hi,
Can anybody tell me why there is so much of a difference. 

Patrick Hunter census 1901 & 1911 birth date was 1861 - if married  in 1880 would have been only 19 years old when married.
Marriage record 1880 states he was age 24 (definitely the same Patrick) -therefore born 1856??
Should I be looking for a birth date of 1861 or 1856
Possible birth date record 1853 - a possible match or definitely someone else?
Thanks in advance.