Author Topic: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.  (Read 3940 times)

Offline Daffydodge

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I am looking for ancestors of my Grandmother GERTRUDE RINNER, born in Graz 23 February 1919. She lived in Judenburg until 1935 when she came to live in England. She died in August 2003.

We visited Judenburg, Fohnsdorf and Pols in May 2007 to search for more information about my Grandmother’s Family and were fortunate to meet the Church secretary Elisabeth Miesbacher in Pols  (Röm. Kath. Pfarramt Poels)
She found out that RUDOLFINE RINNER born 29 March 1914 in Polshof 9 and Gertrude Rinner are both daughters of THERESA RINNER.  :)

An Aunt has contacted the records office in Graz who said that we aren't able to see the birth records and the father's name has been blocked out.  :o

Has anyone else experienced this and know of a reason why this would happen?

Besides finding out who the father of Rudolfine & Gertrude, I'm also trying to find out whether there were any more brothers or sisters and who was the mother & father of Theresa Rinner.

Any assistance solving the mystery gratefully received!

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Offline jorose

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #1 on: Friday 16 January 15 13:30 GMT (UK) »
Did they mean completely blacked out, or just left empty, or a line drawn through that field, I wonder...  It might have been that originally Theresa gave a name for the father, but since they were not married it wasn't permitted and it was crossed out.

When did you ask about the birth records, and did they give a specific reason for not allowing access? They might have been following some rule like "no access to birth records less than 100 years old".
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Offline Daffydodge

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #2 on: Friday 16 January 15 13:36 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for replying, it was blacked out rather than missing. It is less than 100 years ago but the mothers name was visible so not sure whether that would be the reason.

Good idea  about them not being married though, when Theresa died Gertrude was put into foster care with a catholic family in Judenburg and there was no mention of the father.

Offline jorose

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #3 on: Friday 16 January 15 14:25 GMT (UK) »
I'm not sure what the rules would have been at the time in the area, but quite often there was some rule about when the father of an illegitimate child could be included on official documents. Therefore it might have been that the name was originally written in, then since the father hadn't given permission/refused to recognise paternity, it had to be crossed out again.

Do you know when/where Theresa died? (in  Judenburg?) A copy of her death record, may indicate where/when she was born, and will almost certainly tell you if she was a single woman or a widow, etc.
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Offline carinthiangirl

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 03 February 15 15:11 GMT (UK) »
*GERTRUDE RINNER, born in Graz 23 February 1919*

It´s simple because of the 100 years protection period for birth records in Austria.
That´s all. ;)
We have 2015 now, so 4 years BEFORE protection expires.

For Graz you would need the name of the church, no idea which one she made look up….
See how many there are:
Graz-Dom
Graz-Don Bosco
Graz-Graben
Graz-Herz Jesu
Graz-Hl. Blut
Graz-Hl. Erlöser
Graz-Hl. Schutzengel
Graz-Kalvarienberg
Graz-Karlau
Graz-Karlau-Strafhaus
Graz-KH Barmherzige Brüder
Graz-KH Elisabethinen
Graz-Mariä Himmelfahrt
Graz-Mariahilf
Graz-Mariatrost
Graz-Münzgraben
Graz-St. Andrä
Graz-St. Andrä Land
Graz-St. Andrä Stadt
Graz-St. Andrä Stadt und Land
Graz-St. Josef
Graz-St. Leonhard
Graz-St. Peter
Graz-St. Veit
Graz-St. Vinzenz
Graz-Straßgang
Graz-Straßgang-Feldkirchen
Graz-Unbefleckte Empfängnis

Offline carinthiangirl

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 03 February 15 15:55 GMT (UK) »
Birth Index - Taufindex 1899 - 1919 Pöls shows for Rinner:
Rinner Rudolfine born 1914, page 155.
Rinner Maria born 1901, page 34.
Rinner Ferdinand born 1900, page 18
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12417&currentPage=14

Let us see which connections.
Birth book - Taufbuch VIII 1899 - 1919 Pöls

Rinner Ferdinand (ilegitim), 1900 born has mother Genovefa Rinner
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12403&currentPage=18

Rinner Maria (ilegitim), 1901 born also has mother Genovefa Rinner:
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12403&currentPage=34

Rinner Rudolfine - book is still closed at her part. It looks like they did not make actual until yet, normally 1914 must be opened now, as we have January 2015. The closing is from page 153 on.
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12403&currentPage=153

Maybe you write them, as protection has expired NOW for 2014!
State them you need page 155 opened of -> Birth Book - Taufbuch 1899 - 1919 Pöls
Rinner Rudolfine born 1914, page 155
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12403&currentPage=155
last open page of this birth book is page 152
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=12403&currentPage=152
It should be possible now also to see rest of 2014 entries!!!
I do not understand why 2014 is still closed, protection expired and normally should be open NOW!

Contact here right side on page at: DIÖZESANARCHIV
http://www.katholische-kirche-steiermark.at/dioezese/ordinariat/ordinariatskanzlei-und-archiv/dioezesanarchiv

Offline carinthiangirl

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 03 February 15 16:10 GMT (UK) »
Must look if I can find Genovefa Rinner born Dec 10, 1864 in Wasendorf. Looks to be at Fohnsdorf. Eligible home is stated for Kumpitz, which is close to Wasendorf. See on map.
https://www.google.at/maps/place/Freiwillige+Feuerwehr+Wasendorf/@47.193835,14.667868,11z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x4771ca406904a3f3:0x1f91a4bf8ee8b15b

But no idea if she could have been a sister of Theresia or another relative. But maybe a connection and you should save it, when I´m able to find her. Her son Ferdinand is born May 26, 1900 in Pöls 59 and died April 26, 1907 in Graz, Grabenstrasse 88, parish church Graz Graben, which is maybe interesting if they connected to Theresia…….

Her daughter Maria born Oct 7, 1901 married in parish church St. Leonhard in Graz on May 17, 1931 Franz Ferstel. And Maria died on May 10, 1978 in Graz 3. Document for her death Nr. 2015/1978 is to find at Standesamt Graz with date May 12, 1931.

Offline carinthiangirl

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 03 February 15 17:00 GMT (UK) »
Uff, many Rinner in church books for Fohnsdorf!

Taufindex 1856 - 1865 Fohnsdorf
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11063&currentPage=19
Genovefa Rinner, page 163

Taufbuch XII 1856 - 1865    - Fohnsdorf
Genovefa Rinner ilegitim born Dec 10, 1864 on open field at Wasendorf !!!
mother Maria Rinner, legitim daughter of Josef Rinner and Magdalena nee Liebminger in Kumpitz 13,
lives that time at her mother
*I hope she did not have to work in the fields very pregnant - or she was on the way* :o
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11058&currentPage=163

Offline carinthiangirl

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Re: AUSTRIAN MYSTERY - Father of Austrian grandma, born in Graz 1919 BLACKED out.
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 03 February 15 17:08 GMT (UK) »
Taufindex 1865 - 1880 Fohnsdorf
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11064&currentPage=26

Rinner Mathias born Feb 16, 1871 in Kumpitz 13, page 128
died June 10, 1939 in Graz Barmherzigen Spital (hospital)
mother Maria Rinner, that time married Grangl?, Landowners Wife in Pichl? in Weisskirchen; this child was not recognized and accepted by her husband (stated at marriage)
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=128

Rinner Alosia in June 18, 1873, page 190
died Dec. 23, 1948, document Standesamt Fohnsdorf Nr. 114/48
mother ….? Rinner, unmarried daughter of Bartl-Bauer (farm name) in Kumpitz 13
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=190

Rinner Anton June 3, 1875 in Kumpitz 11, page 255
died June 20, 1875  :-\
mother Johanna Rinner, daughter of Bartl farm
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=256

Rinner Martin and Franz (twins) in Nov 10, 1875 in Wasendorf 45, page 270
Martin died Jan 12, 1877  :-\
father Urban Rinner (farmer) later named Wieser ! (officially confirmed)
mother Aloisia nee Pollhammer
(can not make out why name changing)
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=271

Rinner Urban and Andreas in Nov 1876, page 319
Urban crossed out, is now stated as Elisabeth, died April 10, 1877
same parents like before
father Urban Wieser, vulgo Rinner farmer and Alosia nee Pollhammer, Wasendorf 45
Andreas has other parents!  born Nov 27, 1876 in Hetzendorf 1
father is Johann Hackl
mother which was at his birth Rinner or Binder(Rinder?) from St.Georgen Schwarzbach
legitim in 1887 after their marriage;
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=319
pastor looks was very confused about Rinner :P

Rinner Anton and Alosia (twins)June 1, 1877 in Kumpitz 12, page 348
died same day or born death?
mother Thekla? Rinner, unmarried Bartl farmer daughter
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=349

Rinner recte Wieser Katharina in 1878, page 389?

Rinner(Rinder?) Maria in 1879, page 439
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11060&currentPage=440

Taufindex 1880 - 1890 Fohnsdorf
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11065&currentPage=22
Rinner Antonia April 12,1881 in Kumpitz 12, page 13
mother Helena Rinner unmarried Bartl farm daughter
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11059&currentPage=14

http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11065&currentPage=23
Rinner Josefa March 10, 1885, Kumpitz 12, page 118
Mother unmarried Helena Rinner, Bartl farm daughter
http://matriken.graz-seckau.at/flashbook?id=11059&currentPage=120

Found not any Theresia listed.  ??? ::)