Unrecorded VC holder.

[John915]

Good evening,

I have been following this with interest. I have just reread the extract from the Mersey Post.

It would seem that not only his VC is an embellishment but the whole story of rescuing the guns as well.

He was a member of the Garrison artillery, they used somewhat larger guns than say the RHA. So how did they get away with them.

If towed by motor vehicles where did they get them and how were they not detected making such a racket.

If pulled by horses where did they find them, how did they harness and hitch up quite a considerable number without being detected. Then move out with quite a convoy again without a sound apparently because they were again not detected.

I hate being a pessimist but i'm afraid I don't believe a bit of it. Has anyone seen his medical record if it survives because it sounds to me like he suffered delusions probably due to shell shock or worse.

John915

PS, RGA were not exactly on the front line either so the Germans who captured them first made their way through the trenches. Then fought for and took the guns then took them back to their position via the front line trenches full of our troops??

[grandarog]

Just to correct the incorrect detail on Stuarts Records about his size.This a quote from an interview with one of his sisters by a local Sheppey newspaper following the start of the hoax VC story.
Quote"
             Mrs Charles Love, of New Hook Farm, is one of the sisters and it was from her lips that a “Guardian” representative gathered a few particulars of her heroic brother one morning this week on the farm. “Well, it is true then,” Mrs Love said, when shown the story here appended. “I had seen one or two references in the papers to my brother Stuart or “Toots” as we call him. He is a brother I have not heard much of lately as he has been abroad on foreign service in Gibraltar, Ireland and elsewhere. As a boy ‘Toots’, as he will be remembered in Eastchurch, was exceptionally big and strong, all his clothes had to be specially made for him. Mr Ellum, our village schoolmaster, took a great interest in him, and although he was regarded as a bit slow at lessons, Mr Ellum said he would get on in life and be a credit to the family. He came here with us on the farm for a time before going to join the Army.
“Yes Toots was born at Iwade, as most of the family were,” Mrs Love said in answer to my question as to whether Sheppey could claim him for one of her hero sons, but he was brought up at Eastchurch, where his father kept the Castle Hotel for over fifteen years. The family really belongs to Sheppey as we were here before taking the farm at Iwade.
Mrs Love was, of course, greatly pleased to get our confirmation of the news of her heroic brothers deeds, and in the course of the interview mentioned that Stuart is one of five of her brothers serving in the Kings Forces, two being in the Royal Dragoons and another two in the Royal Navy. The good farmers wife spoke with pride at being one of a large family, and mentioned that her husband, Mr Chas Love, who for once was not out with the hounds coursing, as he was busy on the farm with the threshers, also belongs to one of the biggest families in Sheppey. Mr and Mrs Love, of Capel Hill, having had a family of fifteen, most of whom are still living.

                                        Hope this clears up a few doubts.

[IMBER]

Clasp and roses explanaion

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=680833.0

"Added to the 1914 Star:

Clasp

5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
Often referred to as Clasp and Roses. Instituted in 1919 (Army Order Number 361 published 16 October 1919) and awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery during the above period.[5] When the ribbon bar was worn alone, recipients of the clasp to the medal wore a small silver rosette on the ribbon bar.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1914_Star"

So he most certainly was in danger between these dates 5th Aug.-22nd Nov. 1914
 
*Right on his medal card it says 5/11/14 as his entry date into his first theatre of war.

"The clasp turns the 1914 Star into a ‘Mons Star’. Soldiers operating in the rear received the 1914 Star without the clasp and roses. The next of kin of men who had died did not receive the roses."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mons

It is a gallantry award in its own way "awarded to those who had operated within range of enemy mobile artillery", sounds like a V.C if your were a wet behind the ears reporter working because you were to young to be sent to fight. I don't think he ever qualified for a V.C. We all know V.C.s are given for 'bravery under fire'. Perhaps there was no difference thought of in the first four months of WW1 by the public, even if the military awarded V.Cs in this battle to other celebrated men!

I doubt it was a story made up by Gunner S.E.Fagg, the man is a hero. They marched for miles in retreat under fire, wounded and ordered to return to their enforcement lines nearer Paris. They were also vastly out numbered by the German Army.

The Battle of Mons helped save Paris from invasion in WW1 and was one of Britains first battles.  At the time of the newspaper article it would have been big news.

A video account of the battle of Mons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGtfUwW3ZFI

This man did 12 years service, that is a long time.

Another comment none of the records viewed on the Kent History Forum show his wounds within the dates of the battle of Mons but that doesn't mean he was not wounded at that battle. People seem to think army record keeping is infaliable! I wonder if there are undiscovered hospital records in Britain to be found yet.

His medal card shows his entry to theatre to be 5 November 1914 and so he could not have been at Mons or even taken part in the subsequent retreat.

Imber

[barryd]

Contributors to the site "Great War Forum" do not seem to feel that he won the VC.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/223667-cpl-gunner-stewart-fagg-court-martial/

[Redroger]

If I remember correctly the inscription on the Victoria Cross reads "For valor" not for gallantry. If it was an inexperienced reporter he must have been very inexperienced.

[grandarog]

Just to clear any Confusion for people who have not read through all the pages about Stuart. He did not win the VC .He kept up the pretense until found out and was discredited by his Village and Relations soon after the article appeared in the national and local paper. He was also castigated and virtually condemned by the Village Parson who had organised a party in his honour when he returned from hospital.

[Sandra Bartlett]

Was there a Charlie (Charles) Fagg related to these Faggs from Faversham? I can't think of his wife's name. They were good friends of my mum and dad, he was from 20 School Road, Faversham. Eric Keem

[grandarog]

Dont have a Charles in the tree.However there are a couple of Frederick Charles one Bn 1911 and one 188something.Could have been known as Charles.