Author Topic: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)  (Read 19406 times)

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 27 May 15 00:30 BST (UK) »
Re Spicer Cooper he had a half brother Uriah - baptised in Croydon 1817 father William & Lucy Cooper travelling brazier.  Uriah m Mary Hayes in Chipstead 1848 they had a son Spicer bapt West Hoathley 1853 he married Alice Powell and Lucy m Major Smith. Also if you look on 1881 census for Mitcham Uriah is down as Uncle to William Smith. There is a report in the Sussex & Surrey Advertiser 1856 of Uriah Cooper & Spicer Cooper, two powerful & wild members of the gipsy fraternity being charged with encamping on Merrow Down the previous night.
Also if you have a read of the article Dead in a Ditch on the Gypsy Genealogy website it appears that Edward & Henrietta Coopers daughter Cinderella m George Stanley.
The Coopers are a complicated bunch I cant find a direct link to any Parkers as yet. 

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 03 June 15 17:39 BST (UK) »
Lelu, thanks for the post. I have been looking into Uriah, Spicer Cooper etc too, but yet to find any family link either.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 06 June 15 11:22 BST (UK) »
Hello Richard
Yes I am still trying to get to grips with these Coopers and having had a closer look into Edward Cooper it would appear that he was close kin to my x3 gt gfather Robert ( son of Samuel & Florina).
I was looking at Ham baptisms on the IGI & noticed that Robert & Silva ( Silvia I think) bapt their son Samuel on  1st June 1858. I had not looked for a baptism for him as I had his birth cert which confirms that she was a Williams ( she is a brick wall at the moment). I am decended from Robert & Silvias dau Flora who partnered Aaron Mills ( son of Joseph & Naomi). Mills is my paternal line. Robert is also living at Pawsons Rd Croydon in 1871.
The reason I knew about Edward & Henrietta was because Joseph Smith married a Mills

Marriage at Parish Church Mitcham 10 June 1878
Frederick Smith 19 Bach Hawker Father Joseph Smith Hawker
Jemima Mills 22 Spinster Father Aaron Mills Hawker

This Aaron Mills my x3 gt Uncle brother to Joseph
This was a double wedding her brother Eli getting marring Jane Lindsey the same day.
Going back to the 1871 Pawsons RD census Joseph Smith is 35 so born 1836 which ties in with the
Josiah Smith bap 1858 age 22 and he uses Smith not Cooper.


Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 06 June 15 12:12 BST (UK) »
Going back to that double wedding Eli & Jane Mills have a daughter Mary Jane born 1873 down Pawsons Rd she partnered Daniel Cooper they are on 1901 census Wilford Rd Croydon Daniel 29 she's dropped Mary & is going by Jane. Daniel is the son of Athaliah Taylor & Joshua Cooper he being the son of Matty. Daniels brother Alfred married into my Mills direct line he uses Taylor. I think that the Taylors are Cousins to the Parkers.I found Daniel as a young boy with Noah Parker  I have read that Joshua Cooper died young & Athaliah had a relationship with Fighting Sam Smith does he figure in your Smiths. 
Sorry running out of time today if this is of any interest let me know.

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 06 June 15 20:10 BST (UK) »
Hi Lelu. The baptisms at Ham did make me wonder myself if Edward might also be a son of Samuel Cooper and Floriana, but the baptisms I have for their children span 1823-36, and Edward seems to have been born a fair bit before this circa 1811. He might have been a younger brother to Samuel. I know James Cooper who partnered Harriet Lee is also probably a brother of 'Norwood' Sam, and of course their son Levi is linked in records with Job Parker too. I have managed to find out the maiden name of Lemantaney Parker/Carey's mother Caroline, she wasn't a Cooper, she was a Pateman. But again this links up to Levi Cooper, as he is camped with her Pateman relations on one of the census years.

I have come across some Mills links researching these families, Uriah Cooper, fathered at least one child to a Sarah Mills, a son  Joseph Cooper born at Devizes, Wiltshire in December 1849. Margaret Cooper, baptised at Cobham, Kent, to James Cooper and Diana ‘of no fixed abode’ on 31st August 1828, partnered a Moses Mills, and their children used both surnames Cooper and Mills.


The Taylor link might come through Job and Lemantaney's daughter Diana Parker (1887- 1971) who married a George Taylor. She was widowed and later remarried in the 1920's to Adolphus Loveridge.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 07 June 15 09:10 BST (UK) »
I have sat down trying to make some further sense of this Lelu. I think you are right and the William camped with Uriah Cooper, his uncle, on Mitcham Common in 1881, is the son of Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper, and therefore grandson of Edward Cooper who is also camped there that year. That seems to point towards Edward Cooper, born circa 1811, as an elder brother of Uriah and Spicer, and there is a gap in the baptisms of William Cooper's children where he would fit well enough:

Riley Cooper, son of William Cooper ‘A Gipsey’ and Chesiah, baptised at Clewer, Berkshire on 21st December 1800.

Connsaletta Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and Lucy, baptised at Brasted, Kent on 27th March 1803.

Hannah Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and Hannah, ‘Travellers’ baptised at Tudeley, Kent on 11th August 1805.

Joannah Cooper, daughter of William Cooper and HannahGypsies’ baptised at Little Bedwyn, Wiltshire on 25th December 1809

Spicer Cooper, son of William Cooper and Anna, baptised at Greenwich, Kent on 2nd April 1815.

Uriah Cooper, son of William CooperTravelling Brazier of Woodside’ and Lucy, baptised at Croydon, Surrey on 11th July 1817.

What also points in this direction is the lasting link with the Junix family. Uriah Cooper is camped with his wife and child next to Joseph and Kezia Junex in tents at Holty Common, Hartfield, Sussex on the 1851 census. I think it is fairly likely then Kezia Cooper (b.1796 circa) partner of Joseph Junnix, is an elder daughter to William Cooper by his first wife Chesia/Kezia. The fact that Levi Cooper is so strongly linked to all these families in the records might point towards his father James Cooper (b.1798 circa) partner of Harriet Lee, as another son of William. If James Cooper also had multiple partners he might be the father too of Margaret Cooper, partner of Moses Mills.

A strong link between James Cooper and Samuel 'Norwood Sam' Cooper (b, 1794 circa) partner of Floriana is speculated on in the J.G.L.S etc, but the fact his son Robert baptises a child at Ham the same day as Edward Cooper baptised his adult children, might be the extra evidence needed to indicate that he was also an elder son of William Cooper, probably by first partner Kesia.

The above might be speculative but all fits together well enough. The only problem I have is where Matty Cooper comes in. He also seems very strongly linked to this group for over a century, being camped with them , his children marrying with them etc. But he is usually down as a son of Harry Cooper (born circa 1780) and Mary 'Asha' Buckland.
 
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 07 June 15 13:44 BST (UK) »
Hi Richard
I have come across the name Junex/Junix in regard to the Coopers but I'm not sure where I'll have to have a look through my info. I have come across a couple of Kezias I got death cert for the one that died on Epsom Downs 1864 spelt on cert Keziah given age is 60- hawker informant is Joseph
surname looks like Juvient? Could that be the one?
I think the thinking is that Henry Cooper  father of Matty, Elisha, William & Daniel are brothers.
What I came on to mention is that I have found a  marriage from the old passing through website

13 Feb 1872 St Saviour Croydon
John Cooper 23 Bach Labourer abode Croydon Father Edward Cooper occ Labourer
Bride Elivia Cooper 19 S abode Croydon
Father George Cooper Hawker

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 07 June 15 15:10 BST (UK) »
I have this record which places Daniel, William and Elisha together in 1799:

“Stephen Lee, travelling tinker of Southwark, Surrey, born in Hayes, Kent,  Adam Lee of Wandsworth and Putney, Surrey, and Old Windsor, Berkshire, Adam’s daughter Elizabeth Lee, born in Old Windsor, circa 1784, Thomas Lee, born in Kensworth, Hertfordshire, Mary Lee, Elizabeth Lee, Elisha Cooper, William Cooper and Daniel Cooper.”

Of course it doesn't say there that they were brothers, but they could be.

In the J.G.L.S it says Levi Cooper and Matty Cooper were fist cousins. That would mean Harry Cooper (b.1780 circa) was a brother to James Cooper (b.1798 circa), but I am skeptical of the accuracy of that account.

I can identify a William Cooper as one of James' brothers, as in January 1849 Levi was arrested with a William Cooper in Sussex, charged with having broken into Strood Lodge, Slinfold stealing two loaves of bread, two ribs of uncooked pork, and a piece of cheese.  Boot prints led back to their camp where Levi was sat outside his tent eating one of the pork ribs! Levi was described in court as a 19 year old brazier, and William stated to the court that Levi was his ‘brother’s child' and had been living with him a few weeks, but 'looked out for himself’. Levi admitted to the charge pleading ‘please don’t hurt my uncle  he knows nothing about it’.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #26 on: Monday 08 June 15 23:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Richard
Thanks for all the info lots to think about there!
I also found newspaper report in the Worcester Chronicle 1851 about a tribe of gipsies calling themselves William Cooper, Spicer Cooper other names down as Cope but must surely be Cooper Hannah, James & five small children they were charged with stealing a quantity of potatoes.
The name Junix seems to be attatched to Elishas line I have in my ntes that Elisha & Truffenni had a Kesi perhaps Kesia? That's who I thought that death cert I mentioned might be.
Have you seen on the Romany Jib website the marriage of Leonard Cooper Mattys brother & Philedelphia Smith her father was John Smith Rat Catcher.