Author Topic: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)  (Read 19408 times)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 09 June 15 00:57 BST (UK) »
Hello Lelu,

I  only have five baptisms identifed for Elisha Cooper and Tryphena Lovell:


Elisha Cooper, son of Elisha and Tryphena CooperGypsies’, baptised at Moreton in Marsh, Gloucestershire on 15th February 1795.

Finetta Cooper,
daughter of Elisha and Tryphena CooperTravellers’ baptised at Littleton, Middlesex on 26th March 1797.

John Cooper, son of Elisha and Trofany Cooper, baptised at Old Windsor, Berkshire on 28th July 1799.

Thomas Cooper, son of Elisha and Trophenia Cooper, baptised at Old Windsor, Berkshire on 22nd November 1801.

Daniel Cooper, son of Lesher Cooper and Tryphena, born on 19th August, and baptised at Walthamstow, Essex on 13th September 1809.

But of course there must have been more as John Hoyland’s 1816 book “A Historical Survey of the Customs Habits & present State of the Gypsies” has Elisha as ‘Lussha Cooper’ wintering with his wife and ten children at Tottenham Court Road, earning his living as a rat catcher.

Solomon Cooper and Trinity Cooper are also identified as children to the couple from an 1815 settlement order at Boreham, Essex, when they are both described as children of Elisha Cooper ‘Rat Catcher’ . Solomon's son Dukie Cooper later travelled around with his younger cousin, Oliver, the only son of  John 'Fighting Jack' Cooper, step dancing in pubs. Solomon's wife was a Kissy/Kesia White born at Oakenham, Berkshire.

The other three might also be identified. Joseph Cooper, was described as ‘brother of Gipsey Cooper, the prize fighter’ when he was fined for mistreating a donkey at Whitsuntide Fair, Blackheath, Kent in June 1833.  Simeon Cooper and Elijah Cooper, were similarly described as ‘Celebrated characters, brothers of Gipsey Cooper’ when they were charged for vagrancy at Roxwell, Essex in Janaury 1834.

I think Kezia Cooper, the partner of Joseph Junnix is more likely a child of William Cooper, as she is camped with Uriah Cooper and his family on the 1851 census, but I'm open to be proved wrong on that. Joseph Junnix was an east end butcher, from French Huguenot stock.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #28 on: Wednesday 10 June 15 19:52 BST (UK) »
Hi Richard Its very hard to work out relationships when you do not have anything concrete like a baptism but to my mind having had a look at the 1851 census for Kesia/Uriah I'm wondering if she would be the previous generation as she gives age of 55 but on saying that Uriah should be a little bit older than he says he is. I remembered from the Ham baptisms that there was a Kezia baptising children ( no father mentioned) down on IGI as Kossiah & they do tie up with the Junix's 3 daughters Susan, Marianna/Mary Ann  & Elizabeth all baptised as Cooper. You say that Mr Junix was a butcher did he have any premises in Shoreditch do you know I was wondering if it is this ladies death cert that I have & the informant said he lived in Shoreditch.   

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #29 on: Thursday 11 June 15 08:53 BST (UK) »
Hello Lelu, that is right his family lived and had business premises at different times in Shoreditch, Bethnal Green and Hackney.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London


Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #30 on: Friday 12 June 15 11:06 BST (UK) »
Hi Richard Great thank you I am pretty confident then that its her.
It was interesting about what you said about James as in James & Harriet being Norwood Sams brother that would make sense in terms of the patch they travelled for some reason I had thought of him as being Jacks brother and it was 2 sisters marrying 2 brothers.
I am pretty sure that Jack did have a brother James going by Jem which was then the nickname.
I have been digging in the newspapers too and old boxing books;-
This is The Sportsmans Magazine August 1845

There were four gipsy Coopers the degree of their relationship we cannot tell. Jack Cooper was the best known who beat Scroggins, Cabbage & West Country Dick but was defeated by Bishop Sharp & Young Dutch Sam ( Young Sam also beat Tom Cooper).  Jem Cooper beaten by Owen Swift when Owen was a boy is an unknown to the fancy.  George Cooper beaten by Dick Curtis at Epsom is also an illustrious obscure being one of those rough and ready " coves of the bush" who were in vogue resorted to the races etc to fight for a purse.
I have also from Bartley Gormans book King of the Gypsies the material I believe coming from Famous Fights Magazine " The Coopers were and still are a famous fighting tribe from Hampshire and in the early 1800s they included Jacks brothers Jem and Tom and cousins George and Tom."
Boxing records are patchy but I found that the Swift match was 4th Aug 1829 & Jem also fought George Lenny June 1822 so all three brothers were fighting around the same time.( I have also found mention of George who I think was Daniels son.)
Also there is mention of James Cooper a gypsy in the Morning Chronicle 26 May 1836 where he is found on Epsom Downs standing over a man named Stephens and I think this is the Gypsy Stephens that partnered Trinity.
 

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #31 on: Friday 12 June 15 11:26 BST (UK) »
Hi I just wanted to add that the Jem Cooper Owen Swift match is pictured on the front cover of Famous Fights Magazine Vol V11 No 99. I also think that Duke might be their brother.

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #32 on: Friday 12 June 15 16:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks Lelu, I think Gorman's book is most probably right then and  James 'Jem' Cooper is a child of Elisha Cooper and Tryphena Lovell. I have Duke Cooper, born 1807, down as Fighting Jack's nephew, the son of  his elder brother Solomon Cooper, born around 1790 at Windsor, Berkshire, by his partner Kizzy White.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #33 on: Friday 12 June 15 16:37 BST (UK) »
Confirmation here that James 'Jem' Cooper was Fighting Jack's brother:

Bell's Life in London and Sporting Chronicle 23rd June 1822 - Boxing - Hampton Races, on the favoured plain of Moulsey would have had a very unusual termination without a fight. Professional boxers were numerous enough, and the want of 'bustle' kept them on the look out for a match. Lenny threw up his 'castor' to fight any one, and was soon answered by the brother of Cooper, who fought Scroggins. A ring was formed in front of the stands, which were re-engaged upon a speculation. The battle was a manly fought one, of three quarters of an hour. Cooper showed good science, but it was like felling an oak tree to hit the stout form of Lenny down. He had the best of the latter ends of most of the rounds, by waiting for his adversary. Both were much punished, but Lenny won it tolerably easy at at last. Another purse was collected for Cooper, another Gipsy, the cousin of the brother, and a promising youth, who made his debut upon this occasion. It was a slaughtering match of more than an hour, and Cooper was beat.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Lelu

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 14 June 15 14:54 BST (UK) »
From Boxiana
A fight between George Cooper (a Gipsy) and the Guildford Butcher Boy on Weds 28th May 1823 at Epsom Downs for a belly full and a blanket.  This was the first day of the races. George Cooper said to be a cousin of the two proceeding and certainly residing among the same horde on Epsom Downs.

Offline horsesmad

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 01 June 16 12:46 BST (UK) »
Going back to that double wedding Eli & Jane Mills have a daughter Mary Jane born 1873 down Pawsons Rd she partnered Daniel Cooper they are on 1901 census Wilford Rd Croydon Daniel 29 she's dropped Mary & is going by Jane. Daniel is the son of Athaliah Taylor & Joshua Cooper he being the son of Matty. Daniels brother Alfred married into my Mills direct line he uses Taylor. I think that the Taylors are Cousins to the Parkers.I found Daniel as a young boy with Noah Parker  I have read that Joshua Cooper died young & Athaliah had a relationship with Fighting Sam Smith does he figure in your Smiths. 
Sorry running out of time today if this is of any interest let me know.
  The taylors and parkers are related through marriage, henrietta taylor married noah parker.
lee canningtown
Scott mitchim
Taylor
Lawrence middlesex
Hilton
castle