Author Topic: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)  (Read 19417 times)

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 02 May 15 19:03 BST (UK) »
Hi Charmaine.

I have downloaded the marriage certificate for Ruth and George. 23rd June 1919 at East Molesey, Surrey. He is down as 24 a private in the army, father Frederick Parker, Dealer. Ruth is down as 21, father Albert Sines, Dealer, (deceased).

I'll have to look and see if Fred links up to Job Parker and Lemontaney Carey. They had ten children I know of born over twenty five years 1869-1894, two sons, eight daughters, but I don't think they had a Fred.

I have been looking into the Brazils though, and it looks as if George Brazil and William Brazil who married Violet Burden  and Matilda Sayers (1st cousins,  grandaughters of Job and Lemontany) were both brothers of your great grandfather James Brazil who married Cordelia Sines. Their parents were William Brazil and Charlotte Bury.

The Brazils can bet traced  well back to the 1750s as travellers. The Sines I'm having more of a struggle with tracking back, but will keep looking:

James Brazil (1905-1983)+Cordelia Sines (1908-1988) married 1929 Surrey
|
William Brazil (1881-1964)+ Charlotte Bury  (1880-1956)
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Matthew Brazil (1845-1919) licensed hawker +Selina Collins (1848-1894)
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John Brazil (1819-1883) a tinman and travelling hawker + Priscilla Harlet (1818-)
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William Brazil, (1795-1871) a  travelling mat maker and chair turner, +Jane (c.1786-1869)
born Penshurst, Kent
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John Brazil (1768) traveller + Hannah Jones married 1788 Herstmonceaux, Sussex
born Penshurst, Kent
|
William Brazil traveller (c.1745) and Ann

William and Jane Brazil are on the 1841 census camped with two elderly Jones and Smith women who must be relatives of some sort I'd think.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline Searcher1998

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 02 May 15 19:37 BST (UK) »
Wow that's BRILLIANT. Thank you so much!! The  are travellers as well. I'll send you everything I get when my uncle sends it through to me. Thanks again!!!!!!!

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 03 May 15 07:54 BST (UK) »
No problem at all Charmaine. Just wish I could figure out the Cooper connection to these families. Job and Lemontaney are camped with Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper in 1871 at Surmans Lane, in 1901 they are camped at Epsom with a John and Amy Cooper, in 1911 they are camped at West Horsely common with a Henry and Amy Cooper . All the other families with them are married into the Coopers, i.e Junix, Marneys, Vinsons. Must be a connection there...but can't quite figure it out. Maybe your uncle will have some idea.

I have figured out the Ruth Sines  connection though. Her husband George was the son of Frederick Parker born 1851 at Colnbrook, Bucks. Fred was Job's younger cousin, their fathers Mark Parker (1819-1866)and John Parker  (b.1822 circa) were brothers. Job's wife Lemontaney Carey was also baptised at Colnbrook in 1849. A lot of the family still live round that way today. These families seems to have travelled regularly from that area in Berkshire to Surrey and back again. Again maybe because of the link to the Coopers, there seems to have been a lot of Coopers based around Windsor.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London


Offline Searcher1998

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 03 May 15 18:09 BST (UK) »
Very interesting, thank you for your help.

I think you're going to have a bit of trouble tracing your Coopers. There's thousands of them up and down the country and many still in the colnbrook/Windsor area. And many share the same first names too. Same with the Smiths, unfortunately.

I'm goin to ask someone (a Cooper) about your people who you're searching for. This lady was a Cooper before she married a Summers. Her husbands brother (Alfie Summers aka Chick) married my great aunt, Margaret Brazil (Cordelia and Jimmys daughter). Sadly they have all passed away now, all except for the Cooper lady who is now in her 80's but still going strong, bless her!! I know there are Coopers among the Brazils and Sines somewhere along the line but I'm not sure here. I've had the relationships explained to me in the past but I've forgotten. I'll get back to you with anything I find out. Thanks again.

Offline Darnity

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 05 May 15 13:52 BST (UK) »
Probably totally unconnected but my Drapers sometimes use Smith.

Birth on 7th August 1853 of Aaron son of Aaron DRAPER, Traveller and Hawker, and Janet DRAPER formerly LEE.

Father was informant and made his mark.

When and where born - Hill. Registered 1st September 1853, Registration District Thornbury, subdistrict Berkley, in the County of Gloucester.
Gypsy DRAPERs, children of Billy and Mary - Ellen,Darnity,Spencer,Billy Jnr,Kisby,Ellick
Descendants of Fred and Esther (Garrett) WHITLOCK - Wavendon, Woburn Sands area
Descendants of George and Barbara (Willis) SUTTON - Earls Barton and Nether Heyford
BISSELL - Hanslope, New Bradwell, Bucks and Aston, Birmingham area
Lavinia DRAPER died 1840 Cranfield
Gypsies in the Bow Brickhill and Beds/Bucks border areas

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 06 May 15 12:21 BST (UK) »
Thanks Darnity, it's possible Aaron was baptised or born under a different surname, at least one of his own children was baptised under the mothers surname Cooper, rather than Smith. I think he was probably a cousin of some degree to his wife Cordelia, if nothing else because of his brother being  named Jesse. I can't find any Romany Smiths with that name before his brother was born about 1810-20, but there was a Jesse Cooper (c.1784-1832) who died in Benham, Berkshire, the same county Aaron claimed to have been born in twice on the census. I'm thinking Jesse Cooper might have been a maternal uncle to him. All guess work though!
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 06 May 15 12:58 BST (UK) »
Charmaine

This is what I have come up with for the Sines/Sine famile. Earliest I can find are a William Sine and Elizabeth who had the following children:


Thomas Sine born around 1796 West Wickham, Kent
James Sine baptised 24 January 1802 Great Bookham, Surrey
Maria Sine baptised 24 June 1804 Morden, Surrey
Rebecca Sine baptised 1807 Betchworth, Surrey


Thomas and James were basket makers travelling Kent, Hampshire and Surrey. They were both married at Beddington in Surrey, Thomas to Jane Johnson in 1820 and James to Keziah Darby in 1822. Their home parish was given as Mitcham, Surrey.

Thomas and Jane had a son William Sines, born about 1830 (who married Ellen Butler), daughter Emily born 1833 Merstham, Surrey, Son Joseph born circa 1835 Guildford, Surrey and daughter Caroline born 1837 Riverhead, Hampshire. In 1851 the family is living on Wrythe Green, Carshalton, Surrey. Jane died soon after and Thomas remarried in 1852 to  Rhoda Mayers (c.1806-1883), and had one more child John Sines in 1853. On the 1861 and 1871 census they are still at Carshalton, and Thomas died there 15th August 1879.


His younger brother James had died about six months earlier at Epsom Common. James and his wife Keziah had nine  children:

William Sine born 1823  Camberwell, Surrey
Thomas Sine born 1825 Norwood, Surrey
John Sine born 1832 Merton, Surrey
Harriet Sines born 1834 Godalming, Surrey
George Sine  born 1837 at Marden, Kent (baptised at Mitcham, Surrey)    
Richard Sine born 1839 Carshalton, Surrey
Henry Sines born 1842 Byfleet, Surrey
Charles Sines born 1844 Walton on Thames, Surrey
Ben Simes b.1845 Chaldon, Surrey

There is a big ten year gap 1820-1830 in the children of Thomas Sines and Jane Johnson, so I think they are also probably the parents of a James Sines born around 1827. With his wife Ann he baptised a daughter Athalias Sines in February 1848 at Longcross, Surrey (Same place my Job Parker was baptised in July that year, so they may have been stopped together at the time). They were described as travellers of Great Bookham, Surrey and are also parents of your Albert Sines, (who was baptised as Albert Synes 18th November 1866 at Botleys and Lyne, Surrey), Samuel Sines, born around 1849, Walton on Thames Surrey, and James Sines born around 1856 Egham, Surrey.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 06 May 15 13:09 BST (UK) »
Also to add to that there is this little bit on the family in the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society.

"Mesi Lee, sister of Damon Lee, married Kai Scott,and their daughter Mary started a posrat family by marrying a Gajo, Bill Synes

I don't trust this account very much at all though, as Mary Scott was not the wife of Bill, but was the wife of James Sines,  the brother of your Albert. James and Mary were parents of Shipton Sines and the Belcher Sines, who was attacked and killed at Colnbrook in the 1920's. Belcher was married to a Louisa Carey, and Louisa's sister Patience Carey was married to their brother William Sines. . Another brother Hezekiah was married to a Cinderella Cooper.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Aaron Smith (b.1834-8 Circa, Berkshire - d. 1923 Surrey)
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 16 May 15 17:28 BST (UK) »
Thanks for everyone who has shown an interest in this. I have had one last ditch at trying to work out the link between Job Parker and Lemantaney Carey and the Cooper and Smiths. Maybe someone else will see something  I am missing:

1850 Thomas Hilton (born 1826 son of William Hilton) arrested with Spicer Cooper (b. 1817 son of William Cooper and Anna/Hannah)  for uttering counterfeit coins. Thomas's sister Consaletti Hilton was long term partner of Levi Cooper (born 1827 to James Cooper and Harriet Lee ‘Wandering Gypsies’ at Malden, Surrey)
1870 Levi Cooper appears at trial of James Marney, husband of Susan Junix (daughter of Joseph Junix and Kezia Cooper)  described as a keeper of donkeys to let out at fairs, with Job Parker, traveller, testifying to having lent one from him.
1871 Job Parker is on census camped next to Aaron Smith and Cordelia Cooper (daughter of Edward Cooper and Henrietta Smith) the subjects of this thread.
1882 Spicer Cooper dies as a ’65 year old vagrant on Banstead Downs’ in November .
1891 census Levi and Consaletti Cooper are camped on Banstead Downs, James Marney is on Epsom Downs camped with Matthew 'Matty' Cooper, of Royal Rat Catcher fame.
1893 Levi Cooper dies on Banstead downs. Job Parker's grandson Job Ayres is born around same time also on Banstead downs.
1895 James Marney, is camped at Banstead Downs.
1901 Job Parker and wife Lemontaney camped at Epsom Common with James Marney's wife Susan Junix and their  sons, John and Amy Cooper and their children, and the Vinsons/Vincents (i.e Frank Vinson and partner Sarah Brazil.)
1903 Job Parker and John Cooper 'two Gypsies' illegally camped on Epsom Downs.
1911 Job Parker and Lemantaney are at West Horsely Common, Surrey, part of a camp of eight tents and waggons, including Henry and Amy Cooper, James Marney (Junior) and partner Dahila Cooper, James Marney and Susan Junix's nephew Matthew Junix with his partner Sarah Goby, and Joe Vinson with his partner Celia Cooper.
1932 Job Parker's great grandaughter Violet Ayres marries Edward Marney at Mitcham Surrey
1934 Job Parker's great grandaughter Matilda Ayres marries William Burden in a joint ceremony with Horace Ayres, Matilda's brother, who marries Ivy Cooper, a great grandaughter of Matthias 'Matty' Cooper at St Mary's Church, Walton on Thames, Surrey. (Ivy's grandfather was Francis Cooper, whose birth in a tent on a snowy Xmas day 1836 is recorded in Queen Victoria's diaries)

I know Job Parker's mother was not a Cooper or a Smith, but an Alford. Also his relationship with Lemantaney Carey began around 1868, when both were 19, and he is only linked to the Coopers after that date. Lemantaney was born on 6th August 1849 at Stanwell, Middlesex. Baptised at St Mary's, Colnbrook, Buckinghamshire, 13 days old on 19 Aug 1849. Her father was Thomas Carey (born 5th November 1811, Hawridge, Buckinghamshire). All I know of her mother is she was called Caroline, and was probably born circa 1814. She died not long after Lemontaney's birth. Could she be the Cooper link? If anyone can help identify her maiden name or the marriage if there is one to Thomas Carey, would be much appreciated.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London