Author Topic: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???  (Read 2707 times)

Offline floppyslater

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« on: Thursday 23 July 15 03:04 BST (UK) »
I have an old hand written family tree.  It lists John McManus (or Manus) - born 5 February 1839 (Roscrea, Ireland).  His parents were John McManus (or Manus) and Ann McDowell.

The family tree lists him as "lost at sea during immigration." I don't know if he died and was tossed overboard or if his ship sank.  I don't even know when he left Ireland although I almost certain he was heading to the U.S..

Does anyone have any suggestions were I might start looking?


Offline majm

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 25,385
  • NSW 1806 Bowman Flag Ecce signum.
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 23 July 15 03:19 BST (UK) »
Hi there,

Anyone else in the family in his generation who immigrated?  If so, when and where to?  Perhaps they travelled together.

You have him as born 5 Feb 1839, at Roscrea so have you checked if that is correct?

What other information on the old hand written family tree have you been able to validate?  It will give you confidence with the info about your John, if you have confidence in the rest of the info about his parents and siblings. 

I wonder if your thread would be better placed on one of the Irish Boards, as at present it is on the Totally off Topic Board.   http://www.rootschat.com/forum/tipperary/

I know that many of the deaths of those who were lost at sea during migration to Australia were registered at the next port of call for that ship.  As most were direct sailings, these  Marine deaths are included in the BDMs for the various states and territories in Australia.   You mention you were almost certain he would be heading for the US.  I am not familiar with their practices, sorry.


Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
I do not have a face book or a twitter account.

Offline jaybelnz

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,762
  • My Runaway Bride! Thanks to Paula Too!
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 23 July 15 09:06 BST (UK) »
As well as the notification at the port of arrival, and possibly in a Publication there.  If the deceased was British, there is a Marine Register of British Deaths at Sea. London Archives at Kew hold the registers I believe.

Jeanne
"We analyse the evidence to draw a conclusion. The better the sources and information, the stronger the evidence, which leads to a reliable conclusion!" Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

MATHEWS, Ireland, England, USA & Canada, NZ
FLEMING,   Ireland
DUNNELL,  England
PAULSON,  England
DOUGLAS, Scotland, Ireland, NZ
WALKER,   Scotland
WATSON,  England, Ayrshire, Scotland, NZ
McAUGHTRIE, Ayrshire, Scotland, NZ
MASON,     Scotland, England, NZ
& Connections

Offline nanny jan

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,091
  • Russian John
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 23 July 15 09:38 BST (UK) »

British Deaths at Sea are also available on FindMyPast.
Howard , Viney , Kingsman, Pain/e, Rainer/ Rayner, Barham, George, Wakeling (Catherine), Vicary (Frederick)   all LDN area/suburbs  Ottley/ MDX,
Henman/ KNT   Gandy/LDN before 1830  Burgess/LDN
Barham/SFK   Rainer/CAN (Toronto) Gillians/CAN  Sturgeon/CAN (Vancouver)
Bailey/LDN Page/KNT   Paling/WA (var)



All census look-ups are crown copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 51,351
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 23 July 15 11:04 BST (UK) »
If you click on 'report to moderator' you can ask for this thread to be moved to Immigrants & Emigrants - General
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/immigrants-emigrants-general/
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline ScouseBoy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,142
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 23 July 15 11:11 BST (UK) »
The conditions on the emigration ships were appalling and not sanitary. Consequently the mortality rate was high.
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline jaybelnz

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,762
  • My Runaway Bride! Thanks to Paula Too!
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 23 July 15 11:37 BST (UK) »
Must have been an ozone layer problem back as far as March 1873 when my great great grandfather died at sea - Ship's Dr. Diagnosis - cause of death "Inflammation of the brain 6 hrs due to sunstroke". The ship was only 10 days out of England!  Surprising weather for March I thought! 

Jeanne
"We analyse the evidence to draw a conclusion. The better the sources and information, the stronger the evidence, which leads to a reliable conclusion!" Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.

MATHEWS, Ireland, England, USA & Canada, NZ
FLEMING,   Ireland
DUNNELL,  England
PAULSON,  England
DOUGLAS, Scotland, Ireland, NZ
WALKER,   Scotland
WATSON,  England, Ayrshire, Scotland, NZ
McAUGHTRIE, Ayrshire, Scotland, NZ
MASON,     Scotland, England, NZ
& Connections

Offline floppyslater

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 26 July 15 14:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks for all of the replies to date.

The family tree (complied in the 1970s) has been mostly accurate. Considering the time consuming nature of microfilm research and gathering scraps of oral history the person who put it together got most of the information correct.  I often referred to it as the McManus Rosetta Stone since it has revealed a much more extensive family tree than I could has discovered on my own.

I have been able to find the Baptismal Record of John Mcmanus at rootsireland.ie.  He appears to be the first born child of John (Mc)Manus and Ann McDowell who lived on New Road, Tullaskeagh Roscrea, Co. Tippery.

Date of Birth: 5 February 1939. Father - John Manus, Mother - Ann McDoole, Sponsors - Thos Huges & Jane Cooper, Roman Catholic, Priest - J.O

The family's surname was sometimes spelled with "Mc" or without.  The recorder of the baptism record misspelled the mother's surname (it should be McDowell - not McDoole).

It appears that the majority of the McManus children first worked in Leeds and later left for Brooklyn and Philadelphia with their spouses and children. I have been able to confirm this with marriage records and the baptism records of their children.

Two of the McManus boys settled in New York City:
James McManus (1846-1888) - Immigrated 1875-1880
Joseph McManus (1860-1922)


Three of the McManus girls and one boy settled in Philadelphia: 
Catherine McManus Delany (1841-1899)
Johanna McManus Lawlor (1853-1937)
Mary Ellen McManus  (1856-1932) - Immigrated 1885-87
Jeremiah McManus (1861-1930)
- Immigrated 1890-1900

Another daughter - Eliza McManus Searson (1850-1897) - Settled in Manchester with her family.

I discover a Margaret McManus (not on the handwritten family tree) who was born in 1843 to John and Ann McManus but disappears from the record.  I suspected she may have died as a child.

Ancestry.com doesn't appear to hold the Marine Register of British Deaths at Sea - please let me know if I am wrong about that.  Based on the dates of when the other children immigrated I would guess that he immigrated (probably to the U.S.) - sometime in the late 1870s or early to mid-1880s.

I am including a portion of the handwritten family tree along with the key.  The entire tree is too large to include.  Sorry about the clarity of the image.

Offline aghadowey

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 51,351
    • View Profile
Re: A person lost at sea? Does anyone keep the historical records???
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 26 July 15 23:37 BST (UK) »
...
The family's surname was sometimes spelled with "Mc" or without.  The recorder of the baptism record misspelled the mother's surname (it should be McDowell - not McDoole).
...

Spelling up until fairly recent times was phonetic and there can be variations in old records so McDoole was just another version of McDowell. In Ulster Madole is another spelling of the name.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!