Author Topic: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865  (Read 3070 times)

Offline stuart robson

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Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« on: Saturday 25 July 15 08:14 BST (UK) »
I have a family Andrew Middlemiss and Elizabeth Noble who were living in Yetholm before appearing in the 1861 census in Shidlaw in Carham.

I believe they may have had a son George T Middlemiss around 1863 and Elizabeth must have died very shortly afterwards because by 1865 Andrew had returned to get married in Yetholm to a Helen Trotter, (18 years his younger).

While checking the BMD registers I have struggled to find a George T Middlemiss born in Glendale.  between 1861 and 1865. I use these as reference dates based on the 1871 census and the fact that if he was a child of Andrew and Helen then he would have been born in Scotland. I'm working on the assumption that perhaps she died in childbirth or had a very difficult birth and died fairly soon after. Any assistance on where to look for her death would be appreciated. my searches on ancestry have so far come up blank.
Robson, Douglas, Redpath, Sandilands, Keppie

Online heywood

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 25 July 15 08:26 BST (UK) »
Could he have been Helen's son?

There is a George Middlemiss 1863, Berwick. I doubt that one though.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online heywood

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 July 15 08:50 BST (UK) »
How about George Trotter b March 1863 Glendale or George Thomas Trotter - same quarter, year.

There is a death 1863 for an Elizabeth Middlemiss but no age given.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline stuart robson

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 July 15 08:53 BST (UK) »
It's possible he was Helen's son and if he was, then he was illegitimate as they, Andrew and Helen were married 1865 May 5 at Wideopen in Yetholm and had their first legitimate child in 1867.

Illegitimacy may have been a trait of Andrew as although i see Elizabeth mentioned as spouse in the Yetholm baptisms of his children I have to find a marriage reference.
Robson, Douglas, Redpath, Sandilands, Keppie


Offline stuart robson

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 25 July 15 10:02 BST (UK) »
Thanks Heywood i've requested those certificates and now let's see.

I've hit an absolute brick wall at the moment with respect to the marriage of Andrew and Elizabeth or even their births.
Robson, Douglas, Redpath, Sandilands, Keppie

Offline WolfieSmith

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 25 July 15 18:21 BST (UK) »
As an aid to finding Elizabeths baptism, not sure if you already have this info. Elizabeths mother Margaret Noble is living with the Middlemass family in 1851 census in Yetholm, Roxburghshire, aged 73. Scotlands People has a death of a Margaret Noble, age 77, in Yetholm in 1856. Scottish B/M/D records after 1855 can be very detailed. Death certs give both parents names as well as the usual English Death Cert info. Would have to buy some credits to view it, if you haven't already got it.
Alan.
Northumberland - Smith, Willis,
Durham - Rogerson, Child
Cumberland - Irving, Hill
North Yorkshire - Layfield,
Ireland - Collins

Offline stuart robson

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 26 July 15 01:48 BST (UK) »
Thanks that death listing suggests that Elizabeth's mother never married and even her Grandmother lived to a grand old age as Agnes Shortreed is then seen in the 1841 census with this family age 97. Leaves me still trying to determine birth and the death near Carham between 1861 and 1865 of Elizabeth. hopefully the certificate i ordered will confirm death,
Robson, Douglas, Redpath, Sandilands, Keppie

Offline SelDen

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 26 July 15 02:47 BST (UK) »
Don't forget that in Scotland (and not uncommonly in Northumberland) married women continued to be referred to by their maiden name. See, for example:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/FAQs/Questions/index.aspx?75

Although it says married women were generally referred to by their married name in census (as opposed to other) records, I have come across numerous examples of married Scottish women with living husbands using their maiden name in census records. You have to look for them under both options.

Baptism registers in Scotland and many non-conformist registers in Northumberland referred to women by their maiden name & widows are likely to have remarried under their maiden name. If the Yetholm baptisms were for illegitimate children, then the register would almost certainly have made that very clear.  The baptism entries are very likely however to refer to a child being the lawful son/daughter of Andrew Brown by his wife Ann Smith.

I am assuming that you are not relying just on the index entries on www.familysearch.org - if you are then you need to either order the relevant films through a family history centre (best and cheaper if slower), or shell out for credits on ScotlandsPeople for baptisms pre 1855 and for civil registration entries from 1855, as the latter will be much more informative. The birth entries for 1855 and then from 1861 onwards will give the parents' date and place of marriage.

See http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/help/index.aspx?r=554&628#Births

Many people in northern Northumberland married across the Border. They may have done so in the Church of Scotland, but they could also have been legally married by a minister of another denomination in Scotland, or in an irregular (but legally binding) marriage. In either of the latter cases few records seem to have survived.

See
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/

or
http://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/research/guides/birth-death-and-marriage-records/irregular-border-marriage-registers

Finally, the family would not have had to move a huge distance from Carham to fall into Berwick registration district (which includes Norham for example), so I would check out the 1863 birth registration for a George Middlemiss  unless you have other reasons/info which suggests this is not your target.



Offline WolfieSmith

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Re: Elizabeth Noble/Middlemiss died bef 1865
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 26 July 15 08:49 BST (UK) »
There are some family trees on you know what for this family, with info that is worth checking. I know you can't trust other peoples research because it can be rubbish, but it sometimes points you in the right direction.

One tree has a death date for Margaret Noble of 18 Jan 1856 which you could check from the cert you have. Same tree has a death date for Elizabeth (Betsy) Middlemiss/Noble of 3 Sep 1863 at Shidlaw, Carham. That would tie in nicely with the death cert you have ordered, if correct.
Same tree has the marriage of Andrew Middlemiss and Elizabeth Noble at Coldstream, 5 Jul 1839. No such marriage on Scotlands People, but it could have been an Irregular Marriage at Coldstream Bridge where people on both sides of the border often went to marry in a hurry. Some kind person on here may be able to do a look up, although not all records exist, or ask the Tree owner where they got their info from.

Another tack for George would be to get a copy of his marriage cert from Scotlands People, see who he says his parents are (I know it gets expensive). In 1901 this could be him.

Blackadder Lodge N, Edrom, Berwickshire,
George Middlemas, 36, Forester (wood), b. Northumberland,
Jane Middlemas, wife 26, b. Ancrum, Roxburghshire,
Maggie Middlemas, dau, 2, b. Edrom, Berwickshire,

Scotlands People has a marriage of a George Middle* and Jane in 1896.

He might be on the 1911 on Scotlands People as well, not sure if there is any additional info on the Scottish 1911 vs English 1911.

Alan.
Northumberland - Smith, Willis,
Durham - Rogerson, Child
Cumberland - Irving, Hill
North Yorkshire - Layfield,
Ireland - Collins