Pyner and Bernie? Fact or fairy tale?

[tofubertha]

Hi all,

There's a story in our family that two members of the Irish landed class, Henry Pyner, an Orangeman (b. 1799) eloped with a Catholic girl named Lady Susan (Susana) Bernie (sp?) (b. 1789). Their daughter, Mary Ann Pyner (b. 09-02-1830 in Dublin and d. 1812, Minnesota).

After Mary Ann married the American John B. van Schoonhoven (in 1844 according to some records), she renounced her title. I can find Mary Ann Piner in some American Census records (FamilySearch.org), but I can't verify anything else.

There was one Irish probate records that mentioned the last name Pyner and Cavan County, but it was for 1700 and not available online.

It's a lovely story, but how do I sort out the truth from the fiction?

Thanks,

TofuBertha
Lake Elsinore, CA, USA

[giblet]

Do you know the names of Susan Bernie's parents?

[jorose]

Start with Mary Ann.  You need to find every census record 1850 through 1910, her obituary, a better source for her marriage (likely date/place based on children's birth records), and so on b. 1830 m. 1844 is not impossible but the sort of dating that requires a good hard look - have you mixed her up with a first wife who the older children belong to, is the 1830 inaccurate and she was actually older.

If her parents also came to the US then they might appear in censuses, land records, probate, newspaper records, etc - not everything is online, you may need to drill down to time and place and get in touch with local family history societies and so on.

Take with a large pinch of salt any birth/marriage dates that aren't linked to sources.  Sit down and go through every date you have written down and check it's valid and you can back it up.  Make a list of events you don't have records for or don't know the details of - e.g. the marriage, deaths of the parents, probate records, immigration records... and then figure out where you would look for the same.

[ThrelfallYorky]

- But it's a lovely little story, even so!

[tofubertha]

I am new at this posting business. I am responding to several posts at once. Is that okay?

1. Research: more digging has uncovered: Mary Ann died 09-05-1884, Osakis, Douglas Co, Minnesota, USA. I agree that the birth date in 1830 is doubtful. The 1880 Census has a Mary A. van Schoonhoven born in Ireland in 1827. It is also possible that the marriage date is incorrect; their first son was born in 1854.

I have a picture of John B. and Mary Ann (Pyner) van Schoonhoven (undated), which I have posted on Wikitree.org (http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Van_Schoonhoven-34) if anyone wants to see it. I can't date it accurately, but I understand the photography started to catch on in New York in the 1840s?? I don't know how long it would take for photography to get to Minnesota, which was largely rural and forested land.

2. Birney/Bernie parents: unfortunately, I do not have Susan Birney/Bernie's parents' names. One unverified source calls him "Sir" ___ Bernie, b. 1764.

(The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, "Ancestral File," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/2:1:MCJL-SQB : accessed 2015-08-14), entry for Bernie ;SIR.)

3. Yes, I always liked it. It would be even more enchanting if there proved to be a touch of truth to the story.

Thank you

Claire (TofuBertha)
Lake Elsinore, CA, USA

[Dundee]

....a Catholic girl named Lady Susan (Susana) Bernie (sp?) (b. 1789). Their daughter, Mary Ann Pyner (b. 09-02-1830 in Dublin and d. 1812, Minnesota).

After Mary Ann married ...... she renounced her title.

One unverified source calls him "Sir"

TofuBertha
Lake Elsinore, CA, USA

Mary Ann wouldn't have had a title, and if Susan's father had been Knighted then she wouldn't have a title either.  Her mother would have been Lady Bernie.

There are trees on Ancestry which have documentation of Mary Ann PYNER's marriage in 1847.

http://postimg.org/image/7juk67osf/

Marriage Records - WI Pre 1907 Index, Page Dodge; County 3; Vol 211; Sequence Doge; Sequence A 17413. (states Wm J. Schoonhoven m. Mary A. Pyner)

Debra 

[tofubertha]

Alas. I rather thought it was a myth or exaggeration, but I wasn't sure. Oddly, someone wrote this story in the family Bible.

Thank you very much, Debra, for the clarification and for the picture of their wedding records. I'd still like to locate Henry Pyner and Susan Bernie in Ireland or England, but this helps quite a bit!

Thank you,

Claire

[Dundee]

Where and when did Henry and Susan die?  Did either leave a Will?  In 1870, Henry says he is a male citizen of the US, so was he naturalized and have those records survived?  When did they arrive in the US?

As jorose has suggested, you really need to find all the information you can in the US before entering the Irish minefield.

1870 Census

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MNS9-GM3

1860 Census
Henry and Susan

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MW9H-WKT

1860 Census
John and Mary Ann

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MW9H-WX4

1850 Census
John and Mary Ann (Polly) living near John's parents

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M4DF-T6Z

You would have to wonder if young Henry was actually Mary Ann's son.

Debra