Elijah Smith, born c1834, Shropshire

[CitizenSmith]

I’d welcome some help with finding the baptism of an Elijah Smith who – according to census returns from 1871 onwards – was born in about 1834 in or near Wellington in Shropshire.

Elijah and his family travelled mainly in Shropshire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire with occasional detours into the Welsh counties of Montgomeryshire and Monmouthshire, according to the baptismal places/birthplaces of his children.

On his marriage to Henrietta Price (also known as Henrietta Florence) in 1862 in Llanluggan, Montgomeryshire, Elijah gives his father’s name as Thomas Smith. The occupations of both bride and groom are given as 'Gypsies'.

I haven’t yet found Elijah or Thomas in the 1861 census or earlier. Nor have I found any likely siblings for Elijah, using Thomas Smith as the father’s name.

Any suggestions or sightings of Elijah or Thomas before 1862 would be much appreciated.

Many thanks.

[element4]

Probably unconnected, but I wondered about my grandmother's father, Fred Smith, born 1864 in Todmorden, Lancashire.  He is on the 1891 census as a "lodger" and single, age 27, living with Mary Howarth, age 39, and her children who all have the surname Howarth.  He is listed elsewhere as my grandmother's father, and on her marriage certificate her father is given as Fred Howarth.  They are still together on the 1901 census, Fred, Mary, and lots of children.  I remember an elderly relative saying Fred Smith was a gypsy, and that he was my grandmother's father, even though she had the surname Howarth.  She said, disapprovingly, all the children called him father.

I am not sure what she meant by gypsy, whether he was a true Romany or a traveller.

I have absolutely no idea who Fred Smith's parents were.

Is Smith a common gypsy surname?  What was the culture of gypsies in late nineteenth century northern England?  Did they start to live in houses, do the same sorts of jobs as the working class population, and intermarry/cohabit?

[rob g]

Hi. Well Smith is a very old. and wide spread gypsy name. Cohabiting was used for many reasons. One was until the 1920s only a man. Could divorce his wife. Divorce was expensive. And you couldn't Wed certain family members. I.e a brother in law. Widowed. Couldn't Wed a sister in law. Widowed? Plus cousin's. As this was law it made things difficult for Romany people as we tend to only mix with our own. As to living in a Kerr.house..we have allways used houses. Especially in winter. Mostly rented.short term..my own g.g.g father went under Dale. Till 21.then Mitchell..name change was/ is something we do for many reasons. as to work we are mainly self employed. But do work for others. Was farm seasonally related work. Mostly. See some of my replies. There are.were. many Romany castes. But in general. Romany/traveller folks are the same thing. But you didn't get hung if a traveller. But in 16th century It was a crime punishable by death to be born a Romany...we do intermarriage in relatives family's for generations. But also marry Gorgio people. Also if a traveller girl weds a Gorgio man.he often takes her surnames. Hope you get some help from this.  Cushty bocht...Good luck. Rob

[FANDANGO]

Hi I also have a Harriette Price also known as Harriette Florence Who we believe married a John Jones she was born circa 1836 could you please tell me the  name of your Harriette's Father.
Many Thanks

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Fandango

Henrietta Price or Florence was baptised as Henrietta Florence on 9 February 1839 in Baschurch, Shropshire. Her parents' names were given as George Florence and Lucy, described as 'Wanderer' and 'Tinker'. (She gave her birthplace as Baschurch in the 1891 census so we're pretty sure this is the right Henrietta.)

We understand from a Price expert that the Prices used the surnames Price and Florence interchangeably and also that they had a tendency to baptise their children multiple times. So far, we've found 11 baptisms for Henrietta, always with the surname Florence and mainly in Shropshire parishes but with one baptism in Cheshire, one in Montgomeryshire and one in Derbyshire. In six of them, George Florence gives his place of abode as Burton on Trent, Staffordshire.

Sharon

[FANDANGO]

Hi Sharon we also think this is our Henrietta/Harriet who married a John Jones Do you have any children's names we could compare you can email me personally if you prefer

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Fandango

The children we have found for Elijah Smith and Henrietta are:

- Euphemia, bp 1866, Wem, Shropshire
- Robert, bp 1867, Much Wenlock, Shropshire
- Sampson, bp 1868, Pencombe, Herefordshire
- Robert, bp 1869, Trelystan, Montgomeryshire
- Eve, bp 1872, Llanishen, Montgomeryshire
- Elijah, baptism not yet found, possibly born in Whithington, Shropshire
- Richard, baptism not yet found, born about 1875, possibly born in Tenbury, Herefordshire
- Isaiah, baptism not yet found, possibly born in Yackleton, Shropshire

Sharon 

[FANDANGO]

Hi further to my earlier quote I now believe there were poss two sisters one your Henrietta and the other my Harriet born to George and Lucy  circa 1828 If during my research I come across anything to do with Henrietta and Elijah I will be in touch unfortunately they do use different surnames and forenames
Jackie

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Jackie

That's fascinating - many thanks. I haven't attempted to push Henrietta's tree any further back than George and Lucy so far. Look forward to hearing if you make any progress - and I'll contact you if I find anything new.

Sharon