Author Topic: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW  (Read 5949 times)

Offline majm

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #18 on: Wednesday 14 October 15 07:51 BST (UK) »
Perhaps you could read back through this thread and then consider answering some of the questions posed? 

Which NSW BDM documents do you hold actually confirming Augustus parents as John and Diana?  What information did HE provide to the clergy in 1878 when he married in NSW ....

Cheers,  JM

To JM and others,Well I must be the only one on a chat forum to get a spanking for receiving 11 threads and only sending 3..oopps ...maybe I am doing other things and I notice some of your threads repeat what I have said!...Mind some questions like cando's dont even refer to the "Subject".
        I did'nt know William's surname was Clare.....after all he could have been of aborigine heritage ?and Augusta ..European.Augustus Clare COOPER's parents are listed in the NSW bdm as John and Diana[cannot find out anything on them] of course they could have 2nd/3rd parents as he was only 38 when he died[1892] and Augustus Clare CLARE may have change his surname to Cooper..now we are chatting.
       JM I only got A.C.COOPER's birth through his marriage on Family Search ..not from births as I have already mentioned.
       I do not accept Family Trees on any site as I know most are half completed or inaccurate and my trees are for my family.
       I still dont know why I have to justify myself to people I dont even know! ??? MEDUSA
       
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Offline majm

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #19 on: Wednesday 14 October 15 08:14 BST (UK) »
I am attaching a snip taken just now.... clearly Family Search does NOT HAVE historic record for Augustus Clare Cooper's 1878 NSW marriage, despite our OP clearly stating

JM I only got A.C.COOPER's birth through his marriage on Family Search ..not from births as I have already mentioned.
       I do not accept Family Trees on any site as I know most are half completed or inaccurate and my trees are for my family..


Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline sparrett

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 14 October 15 12:17 BST (UK) »

       I do not accept Family Trees on any site as I know most are half completed or inaccurate and my trees are for my family.
       I still dont know why I have to justify myself to people I dont even know! ??? MEDUSA
       
       

Medusa, it is not us you have to justify yourself to.
It is the family you say you are making the tree for.

Right now your work is heading towards being as inaccurate and incomplete as the online trees you criticise.
Sue
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Offline majm

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #21 on: Friday 16 October 15 02:23 BST (UK) »
The following is speculation, which I am typing up on behalf of one of my elderly relatives who is a retired NSW BDM senior officer and has an interest in the far north region of NSW…..  My rellie is concerned that Medusa may be striving to join dots on a family tree that may well  belong on a different SMALL family tree, and suggests that some certificates may well help to confirm or eliminate some of the speculation.   

My rellie wants me to remind Medusa

 :) That NO birth registrations in NSW included ANY provision for a surname for the baby until the 1960s,
 :) That baptism records did not  provide for the candidate to have a surname. 
 :) That in 19th century baptism records the parent/s names were recorded, but were not the significant piece of information on the parish register.  That the focus was on the candidate being baptised.
 :) That in NSW in the civil registration processes the baby’s surname usually defaulted to the surname that baby’s MUM was using at the time, and so if MUM changed her known by surname during baby’s childhood,  then at least in NSW, it was usual that her children became known by that new surname (whether by a formal marriage or a commonlaw marriage or by any other change .... spelling or otherwise).  Any person can become known by any surname (or given name).  In 19th Century NSW it was NOT (and still is not) illegal to become known by another name, unless you are attempting to defraud or deceive.   NSW BDM website addresses this: " A person is legally able to change his or her name. If a person alters their name or uses an additional or other name with the intention to act fraudulently or with an intention to deceive or in any other way which contravenes the law, they may be subject to criminal proceedings. A person may use a new name without any formal steps. At common law, a person will not actually change his or her name until the person has used and become known by the new name. Under the Registry's legislation the name is changed once it is registered."
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/change-of-name/change-of-name.aspx

So the speculation stems from the INDEX info that Mary COOPER married in 1896 to Isaac SMALL as per Medusa’s OP/ topic heading …  and that Medusa has posted on a John SMALL thread at RChat that Medusa is interested in the SMALL family as well as the COOPER family. 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=710799.msg5772831#msg5772831

So from some armchair lookups:  we can see that an Isaac SMALL was born  10 Jul 1873 Brisbane Qld.  We can also see that an Isaac SMALL was buried 17 Feb 1953 Lutwyche Cemetery, Portion 13, Sec 9, Grave 10 and that his wife’s given name was Mary, and that the couple had family.       Here:

MRS. MARY SMALL and FAMILY wish to sincerely THANK Relatives and Friends and  Rev. Graham Wilson for his services, and Neighbours for their kind messages of sympathy and floral tributes in their recent sad bereavement. Please accept this as their personal thanks.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50553097  Courier Mail 16 Feb 1953   

SMALL.— The Relatives and Friendsof the late Isaac Small, of 31 Wongarra Street, Clayfield, are invited to attend his Funeral, to move from Alex. Gow's  Funeral Chapel,  Petrie Bight, This (Tuesday) Morning, at11.15 o'clock, for the Lutwyche Cemetery. Service 11 a.m.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50544069 Courier Mail 17 Feb 1953

Isaac SMALL b 10 Jul 1873 Brisbane Qld
Buried 17 Feb 1953 Lutwyche Cemetery, MON-13-9-10,   
80 years
https://graves.brisbane.qld.gov.au/ 

Qld BDM online

Isaac, son of John SMALL and Harriet MARKWELL born Brisbane #15982, born 10 July 1873
Isaac SMALL, son of John SMALL and Harriet MARKWELL #B42154, death 14 Feb 1953
https://www.qld.gov.au/law/births-deaths-marriages-and-divorces/birth-death-and-marriage-certificates/

My rellie asks me to note that there is a public tree submission on several websites that has Isaac SMALL born 10 July 1873, to John SMALL and Harriet MARKWELL as born Murwillumbah, New South Wales.  The NSW BDM does NOT have such a birth registration displayed on their online index.  Whereas  Queensland BDM  does have a birth registered which does deduce to that 10July 1873 date, and same parents, and same given name. 

My rellie is suggesting that Medusa needs to obtain some official records, particularly BDM records, not just index records, but copies of official registrations of Births, Deaths, Marriages from NSW BDM, or at least official transcriptions of NSW BDM registrations.     

My rellie is not suggesting that the couple, Isaac and Mary SMALL were the same couple that married in 1896 with the marriage registered Murwillumbah NSW #5555, however, my rellie is suggesting that quality research needs to determine IF the Clayfield couple were the couple married in 1896 at Murwillumbah. 

Cheers,  JM  (I have made minor edits for grammar etc.)
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Offline medusa

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #22 on: Friday 16 October 15 03:51 BST (UK) »
To Jm ,I did a John SMALL/HarriettMARKWELL tree [?] some time back with help from a Rootschat crew that was very  helpful and have collected the same details you have sent me and have tried to see if one of that crew knew of Augustus Clare COOPER...?
      I cannot find any information on his death in the Tweed area or even his daughter's death Mary May SMALL[COOPER] in the Murwillumbah area...I even tried QLD BDM just in case the burials were there!
      What I have noticed is that CLARE is a well used Irish name and Yes people did change their names for lots of reasons....MEDUSA 8)

Offline majm

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #23 on: Friday 16 October 15 04:58 BST (UK) »
To Jm ,I did a John SMALL/HarriettMARKWELL tree [?] some time back with help from a Rootschat crew that was very  helpful and have collected the same details you have sent me and have tried to see if one of that crew knew of Augustus Clare COOPER...?
      I cannot find any information on his death in the Tweed area or even his daughter's death Mary May SMALL[COOPER] in the Murwillumbah area...I even tried QLD BDM just in case the burials were there!
      What I have noticed is that CLARE is a well used Irish name and Yes people did change their names for lots of reasons....MEDUSA 8)

You need to spend some pennies and get some BDM certificates.

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline sparrett

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #24 on: Friday 16 October 15 05:23 BST (UK) »

       or even his daughter's death Mary May SMALL[COOPER] in the Murwillumbah area...I even tried QLD BDM just in case the burials were there!
       MEDUSA 8)

Well, it is indexed in NSW at Lismore.

25566/1965  SMALL Mary May
Parents Augustus and  Mary
At LISMORE

Sue
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Offline majm

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #25 on: Friday 16 October 15 05:50 BST (UK) »
Re Aborigine heritage

In August 1916, at Enoggera in Queensland, 5721 26TH Bn AIF James Augustine SMALL aged 19 years 10 months, born Scotts Creek, Tweed River NSW, enlisted.   He nominated his Dad as nok.  (Father) Isaac SMALL, Murrwillumbah, Tweed River N.S.W.   He was of a Fresh complexion, with brown eyes, brown hair, and a Roman Catholic.    I am sure that “Fresh Complexion” is not the usual way to note IF the AIF enlistee was of Aboriginal descent.I have seen AIF service records with “Sallow”, and “Dark” for complexion of those with Aboriginal heritage. http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx

James Augustine SMALL Service no. 5721 26th Bn AIF http://austcemindex.com/inscription? id=6780666
http://austcemindex.com/cemetery?cemid=271

Queensland BDM has the following death registration indexed for April 1965…. 

James Augustus SMALL, father as Izac SMALL, mother as Masie COOPER
#C1756,

NSW BDM online index BIRTHS
32683/1896    
James A   
Isaac and Mary M SMALL
registered Murwillumbah District.    

You definitely need some certificates

Cheers,  JM.
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Offline sparrett

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Re: augustus clare COOPER[ b1856 NSW]-m-Mary MCDONOUGH[ b1858 ] in 1878 NSW
« Reply #26 on: Friday 16 October 15 07:16 BST (UK) »
Again, certificates would certainly clarify this speculation on the birth and parents of Isaac SMALL.

A Sarah LAVER married the son of a very early settler William SMALL.

190/1849 V1849190 84
 SMALL William
LAVER Sarah
IB ( Wesleyan  Church Parramatta)

A baptism record shows this child.

3314/1854 V18543314 40
SMALL Isaac T
Parents William and Sarah

There were other children to them in the district of Berrima.

In 1873 one Isaac Thomas SMALL was 18 years of age when charged and acquitted  of rape at Berrima.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/101101464

If this is the correct Isaac SMALL who married Mary May COOPER, there was a considerable age difference.

William SMALL was mentioned frequently in the newspapers of the day as policeman and gaoler at Berrima and beyond. A search on your part, Medusa will give details.

Sue            


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