Author Topic: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language  (Read 5216 times)

Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« on: Thursday 05 November 15 19:30 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone help me to read this pedigree - the full file is too big to upload so this is a small (and I think the main) section of a larger pedigree which gives other branches, and finding it quite a struggle to read let alone understand as I don't know any Welsh!!

Thanks in advance!!

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree
« Reply #1 on: Monday 09 November 15 09:25 GMT (UK) »
I can't help with a translation,but given your other threads the following may be of interest

The will of Nathaniel Jones of Llandrillo(?) 1683 at NLW

The following speculation that mentions Humffre ap Hugh Gwyn and contains some possibly familiar references -Vaerdre,Ty yn y Llechwedd(same Llechwedd as your interest?)

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/WLS-MERIONETHSHIRE/2002-07/1026144118

Regards
Roger

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree
« Reply #2 on: Monday 09 November 15 09:50 GMT (UK) »
Roger,

Thank you for your reply and for pointing out this detail about Llechwedd, etc in Nathaniel Jones' will - which strengthens my suspicion below:

His son, Maurice who dies in the next year mentions his cousin John Jones Ty Ucha, Tyfos. This implies that John is not using patronymics yet as his/Maurice/Nathaniel's family are still Joneses for at least 2 generations going backwards. Nathaniel also has a daughter called Judith so even though John Jones is a common name, I was looking into the possibility that the John Jones who d. 1705 (grandfather of Foulke) in the previous post may be the same man - especially since he has a daughter called Judith too and they are both from similar property-owning backgrounds. I was hoping this pedigree would give more of Nathaniel's family and prove or disprove my theory but unfortunately and unusually(?) the whole thing - all 3 pages - appears to be just his wife's family. I'm not 100% sure as its very difficult to read (hence this post) but that's what it looks like so far - this may be perhaps because it is 'Nathaniel Jones, Hendwr' and the Hendwr estate was inherited through his wife - Humffrie Gwyn etc are his wife's relatives who are descended from Owain Brogyntyn.

So I'm stuck as to where to look next to find out more about the Jones family which I'm researching!

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree
« Reply #3 on: Monday 09 November 15 10:17 GMT (UK) »
I don't know whether this is relevant,but there appears to be a damaged document dated 1699 relating to a Nathanael(sic)) Jones of Landrillo.I don't think it is available online at NLW,but possibly at The National Archives,Kew(though this may involve a fee)

Regards
Roger

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #4 on: Monday 09 November 15 22:36 GMT (UK) »
More speculation based on possible coincidences.
I wonder if Ty Ucha,Tyfos is synonymous with Ty Ucha,Gwyddelwern.
There is an 1829 will for John Lewis Jones of Ty Ucha ,Gwyddelwern,who looks like the husband of Catherine(of Llechwedd) who you have as of Clawdd Ponken.The will gives his wife as Catherine and they have a daughter Dorothy.I have often wondered about a connection with Gwyddelwern,as the nearest candidate marriage I could find to the birth dates of the "Llechwedd" children was of John Jones and Dorothy Williams in Gwyddelwern in 1764(and I can never find Gwyddelwern baptisms).
To follow the speculation through there is a will of Peter Jones of Ty Ucha,Gwyddelwern in 1786 in which he nominates sons,John,Edward and Thomas(familiar?),and daughters Elizabeth,Margaret,Jane.I,mm not sure when Peter was born,but there is an 1834 marriage of Peter Jones,Gwyddelwern at Llandrillo,1834 to a Mary Edwards.The timing is right for John Jones of Llechwedd to be his son.

Regards
Roger

Offline despair

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,223
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 08:52 GMT (UK) »
To add to the speculation on John Lewis Jones:-

There is a Daniel Lewis Jones,vicar of Gwyddelwern in 1829 who succeeds a John Jones(who dies 1829,not a good year for John Jones(es) viz. Llechwedd!)

This Daniel Lewis Jones given born circa 1803,Llanarth,Cardiganshire in the censuses,is consistent with an alumni record for Oxford University as a son of John of Llanarth.Perhaps son succeeded father and John Lewis Jones was of this family.

Regards
Roger

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,870
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 09:40 GMT (UK) »
Clergy Database
http://db.theclergydatabase.org.uk/jsp/search/index.jsp

I checked for John Jones and Daniel Lewis Jones. From drop down menus,  "Diocese = St Asaph; Location = Gwyddelwern".

These records sometimes include info re family links etc - but very little in this instance.
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian - Price
Abergwynfi - Han(d)ford
Pontardawe - Lewis.

Online hanes teulu

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,870
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 09:53 GMT (UK) »
The Cambrian 16 Feb 1805

"Poor Curates - The following ten poor curates were on the 18th ult elected by the Corporation of the Sons of the Clergy to receive Mr Stoke's donation of 10 each for the present year -
............................
John Jones, Curate of Gwyddelwern, Merionethshire, aged 61, 4 children, income 32".
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian - Price
Abergwynfi - Han(d)ford
Pontardawe - Lewis.

Offline jones9

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 284
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Help reading/translating this welsh pedigree in the Welsh Language
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 10 November 15 10:19 GMT (UK) »
Roger,

Thanks for your replies and also those on the other post which I had been meaning to respond to, but will do so here for ease.

This information about John Lewis Jones, and also John Lewis (nephew of Robert Evans) in the previous post is interesting and I will look into this. I am pretty certain however that the father of John Jones, Llechwedd (husband of Dorothy) was John (b.1709, brother of Foulke), son of Thomas Jones and Elizabeth Foulkes - his wife is Blanche Edwards, and John Jones, Llechwedd, has a granddaughter Blanche also. The will of Foulk Morgan leaving his lands to Elizabeth Foulkes makes me of course wonder if it is the same woman as the wife of Thomas Jones - they marry though in 1703, and the first child I can find is John in 1709, and the only other Foulke in 1715, so I wonder if they had other children baptised in another parish.

I am still trying to find any information proving that John Jones (d.1705), is the same as the John Jones, Ty Ucha, Tyfos, cousin of Maurice Jones, and nephew of Nathaniel Jones, and grandson of Maurice Jones, which is proving difficult.

I have found a few pieces about a Moris Jones (I estimate he'd be born around 1600), roughly in the same period at the NLW catalogue: - one of which (which I can't locate now) I'm pretty sure mentions him in a deed with John Foulkes.

Finally, there is another Jones/foulke family I am looking at to see if they are in any way related to the one I am tracing:

Ellen Foulkes, is the daughter and heiress of John Foulkes, Cilan (d.1663, who again is descended from Owain Brogyntyn) and Catherine Meyrick (d.1677). She marries Gabriel Jones and has children: Watkin Jones (d. 1682), Catherine Jones (d.1682), Jane (who marries John Evans, Dinan), and Mary (b. 1662), marries John Lloyd. I think Gabriel Jones may have had an aunt Gwen ferch Maurice whose will is (1674, Llandrillo) - I wonder if she is a daughter of Maurice Jones (father of Nathaniel and grandfather of John). Mary Powell (d.1681) seems to be related in some way, as has a grandson Watkin Jones, though doesn't appear to match up exactly.

hanes teulu,
Thank you for pointing out this - a useful resource!