Author Topic: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?  (Read 2361 times)

Offline Leeeeeese

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Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« on: Thursday 12 November 15 19:35 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

My ancestor Harry Jones (b1881) has been a challenge for some years now, but, I think, I may have finally smashed through a very thick brick wall and would like, if I may,  to see what you all think.

Harry's whereabouts were always known to me (up to 1929; through census' and other documents) and had always believed he remained single throughout his life. To close the record on him, a couple of years ago I ordered his death cert and was surprised to see that his death had been reported by his daughter I.I. Jones ( ;D - really helpful!).

On the 1911 census he was a greengrocer (own a/c) at home with his Mother and some of his siblings. A '-' (dash) had been entered against the marital status column for him and his siblings, so (I thought) I knew that any marriage took place after the 1911 census.

With him having a very common name it proved impossible to work out whom he married (if indeed he did marry).

I was delighted when the 1939 register came on-line, he was first on-the-hit-list! I found Harry, living exactly where I expected but! - he was alone. His status is married, but no wife or child. Aaargh. I then remembered there was an address on his death cert for his daughter and using ref: 4504h 010 on the 1939 register, can see that the address was occupied by Ivy ? Jones  born 1903- bingo!   

So, I have my tree on A****try and having put her name and date of birth, went off to search, I have found a 1911 census (RG14_23868_0271_03) with Ivy Jones age 9, Mother; Mary Jones (24) and brother Harold (3) (yep, another child!) Mary reports that she has been married for 8 years, though no husband present.

Having had a look again at the 1939 register, using the same ref. above  I can see there is a Mary M Jones on the same street (there are also other Jones, not (yet) familiar to me...)

I then searched for a marriage for Henry Jones to Mary M Jones and this is where I need your thoughts...

I have found a marriage for Harry Jones to Mary Ann Stonehouse on 06 July 1903, St Philips, Hulme (M320/4/2/4) - this Harry is a Fruit Presser (I think?) his address isn't known to me, but I wouldn't know what he was doing between census'... His father is written as Harry (it was in fact Henry), but his father's occupation and death is correct.

Do you think I have found my Harry Jones or am I clutching at straws?...

Apologies that this has gone on a bit! - I'd just love to close this one off.

Many many thanks for reading and for any thoughts you may have.

Lisa
Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA

Offline Galium

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 12 November 15 21:05 GMT (UK) »
I think Ivy in 1911 is aged 7, not 9.
An Ivy Ida Jones dob 24 November 1903 died in Manchester in 1976.  The National Probate Calendar gives dod as 22 February 1976. Her address 7 Tarvington Close, Manchester (Administration, not a will)
Baptism at St Mark, Hulme 6 January 1904
Ivy Ida Jones d/o Harry and Mary Ann of 56 Embledon Street. Harry is a green grocer
Ivy Ida was born 26 November 1903.
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Leeeeeese

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 12 November 15 21:53 GMT (UK) »
Galium,

Thank you so much!!! - it looks like the marriage I found is correct...(but the Mary M Jones on the 1939 census isn't!)

 So, Ivy didn't marry; no distant cousins there then. I do however have more to go on now, which is fabulous... I think the address given at baptism is Embden St - funny, I have a photograph (of lots of children), taken on Embden Street and have always wondered who was in the picture; (I did post it on Rootschat a couple/few years back...) wonder if Ivy (and maybe Harold) featured. Oh Nan!- I do wish I had listened more, as a child, when you were telling the stories  :-\ hey ho

I'm off to dig a little more and will report back...

Thanks again Galium (and Genechaser for the PM)...
Lisa




Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA

Online PaulineJ

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 13 November 15 12:57 GMT (UK) »
What's Ida's place-of-birth in 1911?

Does lancashirebmd show a maiden name?
ALSO: a 24-y-old is a bit young to have been wed 8 years by 1911? Was Ida hers alone?
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Offline Leeeeeese

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 13 November 15 13:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Pauline,

Agree that by todays standards she was very young when she married.

Mary Ann reports she was 18 on her marriage record in 1903, but I believe she was 17 (her birth was registered q4 of 1886) and definitely expecting Ivy. Both Mary and Ivy were Manchester born.

Mary Ann's parents both married when they were 17 and I have found a couple of her siblings who could be considered young too...

I have the baptism record for Ivy (her Parents are both named) and will be sending for her birth certificate (just to be sure!).

The strange thing is that Mary Ann and Harry weren't living together from 1911, (maybe before then :-\) and the 1911 census has another child (Harold) born abt 1908 - I have done a little digging around on him and have found a baptism record for a Harold born 26 Dec 1907, baptised 14 Feb 1908 - the only parent on the Baptism record is Mary Jones... ::)

There is still work to be done here to prove I've found the wife and Child/Children of Harry Jones, but there is something that makes me feel I have...only time will tell.

At the risk of boring everyone  ;) To explain my thought process; Growing up my Grandmother (deceased) spoke a lot about her childhood and family. Harry Jones was her uncle and it's only in recent years  that I realise she didn't talk much about him, other than to say he was a 'book-maker' (I have his papers and stuff to back this up...) A few years back I was talking with my Mum (who too has now passed away) and she couldn't recall anything more about him, though, she said she vaguely remembered mention of him having a 'Lady-friend' (how civilised  :D), but none of the details...

It was when I received his death certificate, that this story came to mind... The imagination can go into over-drive, but I'd love to get a clearer/truer picture - and some facts would be great!

Thanks for making contact and I will update this post as and when there is more to report.
Onwards and Upwards!

Lisa

Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA

Offline Leeeeeese

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 10 February 16 15:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

For those of you that have helped and/or are interested, I have a bit of update. I'm by no means finished, but here's what I've uncovered so far.

I ordered the death certificate for Ivy Jones, this confirmed her date of birth, death and address (Tarvington Close). Sadly, the informant on the certificate was the coroner. Ivy was found dead on arrival at hospital. Further investigation uncovered; letters of administration were granted to her mother (Mary Ann Jones) of the same address.

Mary Ann Jones didn’t die until 1982 (aged 94). Interestingly, her son was the informant on her death cert, living at the same address (Tarvington Close). Even more interesting (I’m no longer surprised by any of my Jones’  ;D) is that her name is Mary Ann Jones; maiden name Stonehouse – but under the  ‘occupation and usual address field’  it is recorded she was the ‘Widow of – (hyphen) Greenwood. Occupation Unknown’ AND, her son is Harold Greenwood Jones! - 

Having the full name of Harold (who died in 1986), I now know that he married Evelyn Kenyon in 1929 (his Father’s name is blank on the marriage cert). They went on to have a son Harold (b1929), who at some point, (probably around 1960), emigrated to the States where he died in 1998. (I have a possible name for a marriage, but haven’t researched yet)

It has taken me a while to find a birth record for Ivy, but I believe I have found a likely match and ordered it. 
I have also ordered the Birth & Death Cert for Harold Greenwood Jones, in the hope that it uncovers additional/interesting information.

In addition, with the help of the fabulous team on the USA board, I have made contact with a possible decendant of Harold (b1929) in the US. I’m hoping this will lead to me confirming his wife and any children they may have had – Also whether Harold & Evelyn had any other children.

If you’re all happy to continue reading, I will update further when I have something to report.

Finally... did anyone live in Tarvington Close, M10 - during the 70/80’s? Did anyone know anything about the Jones family? - If yes, please share!  ... you can but ask... ;D

Thanks for reading. I’m off digging...
Lisa
Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA

Offline Priscilla

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Eccles (Hoylake / Exeter / Plymouth)
Hicks (Devonport, Plymouth)
Grafton (Exeter, Devon)
Harris (Marazion, Cornwall)
Collard (Yeovil, Somerset)
Johns (Devonport, Plymouth)
Lyle (Bude, Cornwall)

Offline Leeeeeese

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 10 February 16 15:53 GMT (UK) »
Hi Priscilla,

Thanks for sharing the link. The possible marriage I had was for Muriel who died in 2013... that said, I won't rule this out as nothing is certain at the moment...  :-\

Lisa
Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA

Offline Leeeeeese

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Re: Marriage - Right/Wrong track?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 15 February 16 11:52 GMT (UK) »
Me again...

I have received the birth certificate for Ivy Jones this morning. As I previously mentioned, I had had difficulty finding a birth registration for Ivy Ida Jones and eventually settled for Ivy Jones... But am now questioning what I have received...

1. Her baptism record (and death cert) records her birth date as 26th Nov 1903 - the birth cert records her birth as 26th Dec 1903.

2. Her baptism records her name as Ivy Ida, her birth cert records Ivy. (The birth was registered 1st Feb 1904 - Her baptism took place on 6th January 1904)

3. The Father's name isn't the easiest to read, at first glance it looks like Harvey Jones, but it could be Harry (which is what I expecting).

4. The place of birth and address of informant is 57 Embden St - the baptism records 56 Embden St. 

5. The signature, description and resident of informant had M Johns, the Johns is then crossed out and Jones had been entered - above the correction 39 has been entered. In writing at the side of the registration fields is written Thirty-nine E(or G) P... all of the writing looks to be identical, so what is this about?  The Mary Jones is the mother, formerly Stonehouse...

So, in the main, it looks to be my Ivy, but so many anomolies...  what do you all think? There is so much intrigue and mystery with this leg of my tree...
Many thanks

Lisa







Turner - Manchester (esp Emily born circa 1853/1855)
Jones - Hulme/Manchester (esp Henry born circa 1847)
Cottrells - Ness/Neston (esp Margaret born circa 1874/1875)
Ellis - Neston and other Cheshire
Butlers - Stockport
Clarke - Whittington, Staffordshire UK and USA