Author Topic: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?  (Read 84797 times)

Offline janicejo

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #72 on: Tuesday 21 November 17 16:26 GMT (UK) »
I have to figure out how to put a picture of myself here, to show you what I looked like when I was younger (and healthier!).  I sure didn't look like a white girl. People would ask me, "what are you? Are you an Indian?"  Meaning our Native Americans (I'm pretty old!).  Maybe I would follow the English Romany norms if my grandmother had TOLD us (my poor Dad spent most of his adult life thinking he had a "sunburn"!!),  but, seeing as I'm in the states and most people have no idea what a Romany is here, I use "Romany gypsy".  And I have some North African DNA too, so maybe I'm Egyptian too  ;D.
       Back to what you would see on your DNA test:  If you put your DNA data on GEDmatch, and your Romany DNA will show up as "South Asian".  The best "ethnicity tool", actually a test, for me is "Eurogenes K-13".  There are some options, and the default option gives you a pie chart.  If you go down the list of options to "chromosome painting",  you can see exactly where on each chromosome your Romany DNA is!  Now I have 2.6% South Asia DNA. Averaging a 50% loss with each generation, my Dad had 5%, Grandmum 10%, g-grandma 20%, and 2g-grandma 40% - she was the one who married out of the Romany community.  My South Asian DNA mostly shows as sizable chunks 1 - 5 cM long on my chromosomes.  Every once in a while, I find little specks of it too.  Most of these specks I also share with my maternal 1st cousin on the Ukrainian side.  I'm theorizing that I got a little Romany DNA on my Ukrainian side from centuries ago, why that's broken into bits.

Offline Bobmills6

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #73 on: Friday 24 November 17 14:42 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for all the great information richarde1979 inow have them back a further generation didn't know moses parents. I will try the websites you gave see if anything on him there. Goof luck with the book. Bob
I think the Romany and Traveller Family History Society may have published some books on Smiths, if you check their website. The late Terence Lee also published two books on the Smiths but they are difficult to get hold of. He built up an impressive database of Romani parish register entries, which he made available through record offices, and complimented with several self-published works. In my own small way I’m following his example. I had some interaction with him, shortly before he passed, where he expressed satisfaction at the standards I had put in place for my sources and evidence, which he evidently felt was lacking in some researchers. Gordon Boswell who owned and run the Romany Museum in Lincolnshire, was similarly supportive when I visited him with my family, and expressed interest in writing his own autobiography with help, but sadly this did not come to fruition, as he too unexpectedly passed just months later. I regret that neither man, who each did so much in their own way to record, share and preserve Romany heritage in the U.K, will see the finished work, but their support and encouragement was appreciated and is not forgotten. Once published I intend to share my own database of more than a thousand early sources, many original discoveries, with the Anglo-Romani Heritage Project, a great free online resource. There’s already much useful information on the Smiths there, so worth checking for your family on there if you havn’t already.

Whether your grandad would have been considered a Gypsy or not is difficult to say one way or another. I have Romani ancestry and genes, and close Romani family, brother-in-law, sister-in-law, nieces and nephews, but I don’t call or consider myself a Gypsy, so wouldn’t presume to judge who are, or are not, so called ‘Real Gypsies’, from a ‘Real Gyspy background’, (whatever that might mean). I can only say in my experience an upbringing among the community is more important than blood lines, the importance of which tends to be overstated. My brother in law’s family is a good example of that. They originate in the union between a non-Gypsy man, and a Romany female [Ayres] in the late 1890’s. The next generation, his great grandparents, who married in 1916, was also a mixed marriage, his great grandfather marrying a local non-Gypsy girl. The family lived on fixed sites travelling seasonally after WWI, and from the late 1950’s moved permanently into houses, but have never been thought of anything other than fully Gypsy within and without their community.

The idea of unmixed bloodlines is a myth, and probably always has been. The conclusion to the same DNA study quoted before reflects a similar reality, where lifestyle and upbringing trumps genes:

We contest the common idea that Gypsies in general are an extremely closed group. The minimum estimate of around 37% as the proportion of male admixture that had already occurred in Iberia is in clear contradiction with the stereotype. This high rate of lineage assimilation means that through adoption of a socio-cultural style of life, many people became and are becoming Gypsy (and vice-versa). More than reflecting a biological/linguistic entity, the term “Gypsy” must be perceived as a social construct in a continually changing environment.


Thanks for the interest in the books Bobmills6, and best of luck with your own research.

Offline janicejo

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #74 on: Friday 24 November 17 17:17 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Bob Mills and Richarde for the last post.  I had not read Richarde's post that Bob had quoted till now.  I particularly liked this, "The idea of unmixed bloodlines is a myth, and probably always has been. The conclusion to the same DNA study quoted before reflects a similar reality, where lifestyle and upbringing trumps genes:".  Also the information about Spanish DNA coming with Romany.  I have little Spanish DNA, but my full brother David has 9%.  Some of the DNA matches that I have to English Romanies still in the community, the DNA we share in common is Iberian.  I have a low level DNA match to an Spanish-American Romany at the same piece of DNA.  And then I lots of good DNA matches to people who had never heard of "Romany", at South Asian DNA stretches.
      In contrast, some of my Romany DNA matches, I can trace their ancestors living together on the same street or in the same house back in the 1800s.  Families who probably were 2nd cousins to each, living in close proximity.  I want to draw some charts showing the relations with DNA matches, and where their ancestors lived then, its pretty interesting.


Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #75 on: Saturday 25 November 17 10:39 GMT (UK) »

They also give lie to the idea 'a Gypsy', can only be said to be someone with both parents Romani. The evidence is there loud and clear, insular as Romani culture is, they have nevertheless been mixing and assimilating outsiders quite happily for the last thousand years, both male and female. The 'pure blood' nonsense was a myth largely perpetuated by non-Gypsy scholars and linguists in the 19th century, with disastrous consequences for many.

No one here is suggesting "'a Gypsy', can only be said to be someone with both parents [who are] Romani." or said anything about "'pure blood'"


...Back to what you would see on your DNA test:  If you put your DNA data on GEDmatch, and your Romany DNA will show up as "South Asian".  The best "ethnicity tool", actually a test, for me is "Eurogenes K-13".  There are some options, and the default option gives you a pie chart.  If you go down the list of options to "chromosome painting",  you can see exactly where on each chromosome your Romany DNA is!  Now I have 2.6% South Asia DNA...

...Also the information about Spanish DNA coming with Romany.  I have little Spanish DNA, but my full brother David has 9%...

Commercially available Autosomal DNA testing is unreliable at guessing ethnicity. It might be useful for connecting with distant relatives, but it cannot tell you your 'ethnic' makeup. The testing companies even tell you this in their FAQS 'legal' information.

quote
"4. What does it mean when my ethnicity results identify 'Trace Regions'?
Most people may have a percentage identified with 'Trace Regions' in their genetic ethnicity results. Trace Regions are regions where the estimated range includes zero and does not go above 15%, or where the predicted percentage is less than 4.5%. Since there is only a small amount of evidence that you have genetic ethnicity from these regions, it is possible that you may not have genetic ethnicity from them at all. This is not uncommon, and as more genetic signatures are discovered with a higher confidence level, we may be able to update these Trace Regions over time."

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/dna/legal/faq#about-2
unquote

The unreliability of these, so called, 'ethnicity' tests has been discussed in many topics on rootschat's 'Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing' section
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/ancestral-family-tree-dna-testing/

Offline Bobmills6

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #76 on: Sunday 26 November 17 20:46 GMT (UK) »
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote there then why I asked richarde1979 opinion on it. My granfarther did not have both parents Romany heritage but I was always told he travelled and called himself a Gypsy. I was confused, but Richarde1979 has explained it well to me and i u derstand
now thanks.
I was brought up told that to call oneself 'a Gypsy', you would have to have both parents with Romany heritage.

Offline Redroger

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #77 on: Monday 27 November 17 16:28 GMT (UK) »
My grandfather Samuel Ayres (1868-1935) was the son of James Ayres (1844-1923) and Emily Cornwell (1850-1941) seems to have been of gypsy stock (cf Ayres/Brignell wedding photo 1896 on this site). He married Melinda Brignell in 1896 and they had 3 daughters, Doris (1897-1970), Winifred (1898-1997) and Emily (1903-2003) (my mother) Doris in particular was very dark skinned, with dark brown eyes , and blue wiry hair, Winifred was less dark with blue eyes, but still the shock of hair. My mother, Emily had black hair, but a fairer skin. Her eyes were blue, but her right eye had one brown segment. Doris and to a less extent Winifred could easily be taken for Southern Europeans.I had a Y DNA test, but soon must have the other test as well to see what that tells me.
Ayres Brignell Cornwell Harvey Shipp  Stimpson Stubbings (all Cambs) Baumber Baxter Burton Ethards Proctor Stanton (all Lincs) Luffman (all counties)

Offline janicejo

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #78 on: Monday 27 November 17 16:57 GMT (UK) »
I want to clarify my position on South Asian DNA: it is ONE indicator of Romany heritage.  After I tested on Ancestry DNA, I was contacted by a member of the Stanley family in America, telling me I was likely connected to him thru Romany heritage. Then I transferred my DNA data to GEdmatch, where my largest X DNA match is a man in the English Romany community.  Mr. Stanley had told me that my Romany ancestor was likely my Smith, Cooper, or Riley line.  The Riley line is a perfect X match for me.  So at this point, I have my South Asian DNA, 2 DNA matches, both of whom have ancestors back in Staffordshire.  These are clues, but not proof.  Proof came when a 2nd cousin of mine took a DNA test, and we found each other.  Oh yeah, she says, "we spoke the language in our house and I still remember some".  Her grandfather was my grandmother's brother!  Because my Dad moved to California, and my grandmother's family was up in Canada, we only visited Grandma and my 1st cousins when we went up to visit.  Much later on, when my aunts were very old, they gave us a picture of their grandma and her other kids. 
        In conclusion: I am from a Romany family, that left the English community in 1912. Some of my 2nd cousins still know a lot more about our family connections than I do.

Offline richarde1979

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #79 on: Wednesday 29 November 17 07:20 GMT (UK) »
The Iberian study was on the Romani commmunity in Portugal. Whilst it found lots of admixture with the surrounding populations, it did not neccesarily find that there was any significant amount of Romani DNA in the non Gypsy population. By that I mean the Indian haplogroups are found almost exclusively in the Romani population, rarely ever in non-Romany Europeans. The number of European Romanies who have tested are however relatively small, which is unsuprising given the recent history of racial profiling in the 20th century. I know alot of Romani people are reluctant to test and suspicious of the technology. There is also the potential for discrimination within the community itself. In the 19th century families who were darker complexioned or spoke 'deeper' Romanes, were at times singled out as somehow more authentically 'Gypsy' than others. This could be mirrored in the modern age, with families carrying the Indian DNA Haplogroups, and higher percentages of South Asain autosomal results, being singled out in the same manner, both by those outside the community and some inside. I know of one local family who have tested, and were quite dissapointed to find their Y-haplogroup was European and Scandinavian. As far as they knew their family had always been Romani for centuries. The fact is the DNA studies give tools which can indicate Romani ancestry, but there is no such thing as 'Romani DNA'. One 'Rom' might have both Haplogroups traceable to India and lots of South Asain in their Autosomal results, another might have none of these, but both are still 'Roms'. The long history of nomadism and admixture is reflected in very variable DNA results.
Bellenger, Sebire, Soubien, Mallandain, Molle, Baudoin - Normandy/London
Deverdun, Bachelier, Hannoteau, Martin, Ledoux, Dumoutier, Lespine, Montenont, Picard, Desmarets - Paris & Picardy/Amsterdam/London
Mourgue, Chambon, Chabot - Languedoc/London

Holohan, Donnelly, McGowan/McGoan - Leitrim, Ireland/Dundee, Scotland/London.

Gordon, Troup, Grant, Watt, McInnes - Aberdeenshire, Scotland/London

Offline TROUBLET

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Re: Romany DNA - what would you expect to see?
« Reply #80 on: Thursday 19 April 18 23:20 BST (UK) »
So i got my DNA and im nothing what i was told. What am I . 52% west europ. 16% Great Britain. 16% irland scottland, 13% liberian. 2% scandi, 1% east eroup. So i thought i was Native then romni what am I who do i belong help.