Author Topic: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt  (Read 6854 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #72 on: Thursday 10 December 15 23:31 GMT (UK) »
NSW ER 1878 LIVERPOOL PLAINS
James HYATT, residence, Tareela Station, in the Tamworth Police District.
Joseph BIRCH, residence, Werries' Creek, in the same PD

Electoral Rolls in that era were prepared by Police under the guidance/direction of the Police Magistrates, and the Police made verbal enquiries.  So accents/spelling variations and similar issues need to be taken into consideration. 

The 1878 Liverpool Plains electorate covered a vast geographical territory in the northwestern sector of NSW, covering much of three separate Police Districts.

In the 19th Century each NSW government department had their own way of interpreting their 'districts' ... so what was a district at NSW BDM is not the same as say a Pastoral District or a Land Board district or a Police district or an Electorate.   ......

It seems likely there was more than one James HYATT in NSW in the 1870s…. 

NSW ER 1878 PADDINGTON
James HYATT, household, Pitt Street, Waterloo

Cheers,  JM
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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #73 on: Friday 11 December 15 00:00 GMT (UK) »
The NSW State Records Office has a partnership arrangement with Ancestry.  The 1901 Household Returns for 1901 Census are available as images there.

In the County of Clive, in Census District no. 70,  Tenterfield, in the Sub District of E Wunglebung, in the Locality of McLEODS CREEK,

Name of Householder:  R. HYATT   (it does NOT record the given name for this householder, although other householders have their given names recorded).

Total number of persons    2 M  (two Males,  none are marked as either Chinese or Aborigines)

Remarks      Bark Hut

There was no provision for occupation, or for names of others in the household.

http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-7/short-guide-7#about-this-guide    This is the link to the Short Guide re the 1901 NSW Census Collectors' Books.

Cheers,  JM


The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #74 on: Friday 11 December 15 00:49 GMT (UK) »
Just to Add the Register of Coroner's Inquests is viewable on ancestry, it has the same information that was contained on the death certificate and was probably the source of that information as the informant isn't one of the family.

There is something that is confuddling me still.   

I have searched the images of the Register of Coroner’s Inquests from the beginning of October 1907 until end of December 1907.

I cannot find any entry giving “Tamworth” under the heading “Where Born” and I cannot find Emma’s inquest.  Most likely I have missed it.   
NSW BDM has her DD as 3 November 1907.   The death registration should at least give burial details. 

ADD
An Emma Hyatt married Herbert Spruce at Raymond Terrace Weslyan in November 1887……. when she died in 1907, her death certificate lists her father as John Height and her birth place as Tamworth in 1869.
 
and
the informant on her death certificate (her husband Herbert) may have got the information wrong.  However, I cannot find anything that places John and Emma Hyatt at any point in Tamworth

To add to my pervious comment about the birthplace on Herbert's death certificate being a Red Herring, its therefore follows that Emma's age could also be on her death certificate but then it was her husband who was the informant and neither was that elderly at the time so you would have hoped he would have known.

Please unconfuddle me.


Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #75 on: Friday 11 December 15 01:42 GMT (UK) »
I accept that the certificate only suggests that Herbert was underage. 

Smudwhisk, please don't ..... You see .....

The Police Magistrate is not suggesting that Herbert was underage. There's no suggestion.  The Rev'd clearly records that The PM stated that Herbert is under 21 years.   The Police Magistrate has clearly informed the Reverend that "the said Herbert SPRUCE being under the age of twenty-one years" ....

"being" is used there as a present particple of the verb TO BE .... and 21st century wording would read " Herbert SPRUCE is not yet 21 years of age"  ....  "being" in that sentence is constructed in a legal sense.    There is no suggestion, it is a positive statement, and frequently used in that sense on NSW BDM registrations.  It continues to be used in that positive sense in statute law in NSW even in this century. 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

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Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #76 on: Friday 11 December 15 01:59 GMT (UK) »
Can you please type up all the information on Emma Maria HYATT's NSW birth cert.    I should mention that there's Enfield in NSW, and it is a suburb of Sydney.  The Post Office was established there in 1853, and that would be a good indicator of officialdom recognising the area by that name.

There may well be an Enfield in NSW.  However, Emma Maria Hyatt's birth certificate states that her father was born in "Enfield England", aged 29 years, and her mother in "Picton".  I have, of course, assumed that Picton was in NSW.  There is no doubt, as there is only one John Hyatt born in Enfield at that time, that he IS the John Hyatt who died in McLeod's Creek in 1903 and whose brother Richard was the informant listing his birthplace as Enfield, Middlesex, that he had resided in NSW for 45 years and listed their parents' names (albeit Richard got their mother's maiden name wrong but that is another long story).
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #77 on: Friday 11 December 15 02:03 GMT (UK) »
The details on NSW BDM birth certificates is quite extensive. 

May I ask some further questions.... 

Who was the informant on Emma's birth cert?  On the 1873 birth certificate for Emma's younger brother, who was the informant? Does it mention his older siblings ..... if so, what is recorded there.   

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #78 on: Friday 11 December 15 02:12 GMT (UK) »
I accept that the certificate only suggests that Herbert was underage. 

Smudwhisk, please don't ..... You see .....

The Police Magistrate is not suggesting that Herbert was underage. There's no suggestion.

JM, rather than leave out the subsequent sentences to quote with your post, if you had perhaps left the subsequent ones in, or, for that matter, actually read them all together, it would have made more sense.  I accept it perhaps isn't written as clearly as it should, but the subsequent sentences do suggest that what you are suggesting I said was not what I was saying.

I accept that the certificate only suggests that Herbert was underage.  However, just because the Minister or District Registrar both didn't think Emma was underage, is not conclusive evidence that she was 21 or over.  It just means that she didn't say otherwise or they assumed from her appearance that she was and perhaps didn't query that.

My comment was that just because Herbert was the only party listed as being underage, does not, in any way, confirm that Emma was definitely over the age of 21 years.  It was just that the Magistrate and Vicar obviously assumed she was or she just told them that. 

Or are you telling me they had to carry around copies of their birth and, where appropriate, marriage certificates to prove their age and marital status in 1887 because frankly I would very much doubt that was a pre-requesite to getting married in those days.  And in any case, how would Emma knows that's what the piece of paper said anyway since she was illiterate?

Considering I posted in reply to Neil's post that the two birth certificates of Herbert and Emma's children which I have seen suggest that the most likely candidate for his birth, although not the same as the birthplace on his death certificate, indicate he was only 20 years old and therefore quite obviously under 21 years of age.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #79 on: Friday 11 December 15 02:17 GMT (UK) »
The details on NSW BDM birth certificates is quite extensive. 

May I ask some further questions.... 

Who was the informant on Emma's birth cert?  On the 1873 birth certificate for Emma's younger brother, who was the informant? Does it mention his older siblings ..... if so, what is recorded there.   

Cheers,  JM

I do not have a copy of the Emma's brother's birth certificate and I am not intending to purchase it.  I have already purchased quite a few certificates on what is a sideline and I really do not see how purchasing a copy of John T Hyatt's birth certificate is likely to shed any more light.

Unless, of course, you are hoping it will dispute the birthplace of her father?

The informant on Emma's birth certificate was her father so I'm sure he knew where he was born, especially as he appears on the 1851 Census in Enfield with his parents and siblings.

So unless the Registrar who recorded the details made a mistake and assumed he was an English immigrant when perhaps he wasn't; or the Transcription Agent who produced the Transcription for me, and has numerous years of experience, couldn't read the handwriting properly; or, for that matter, you are suggesting I can't read properly and am just assuming it says Enfield, England, perhaps you would be kind enough to actually accept that that is what it says and stop disputing everything I post please.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #80 on: Friday 11 December 15 02:18 GMT (UK) »
And no there are no other children mentioned, nor is there a section on the transcript for this.  But as I have absolutely no intention of purchasing an original from the NSW BMD to double check, that is what I take as being correct.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day