Author Topic: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt  (Read 6862 times)

Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #54 on: Thursday 10 December 15 00:29 GMT (UK) »
NSW ER 1878 LIVERPOOL PLAINS
James HYATT, residence, Tareela Station, in the Tamworth Police District.
Joseph BIRCH, residence, Werries' Creek, in the same PD

Electoral Rolls in that era were prepared by Police under the guidance/direction of the Police Magistrates, and the Police made verbal enquiries.  So accents/spelling variations and similar issues need to be taken into consideration. 

The 1878 Liverpool Plains electorate covered a vast geographical territory in the northwestern sector of NSW, covering much of three separate Police Districts.

In the 19th Century each NSW government department had their own way of interpreting their 'districts' ... so what was a district at NSW BDM is not the same as say a Pastoral District or a Land Board district or a Police district or an Electorate.   

ADD
There's a death that is indexed at NSW BDM as Emma SPRUCE, with father as John, no mention of Emma’s mum.  The death was registered in the Newcastle District in 1907.  The Ref no. is 14745.  If this is your Emma, then perhaps you need to search for her as Emily in the 1900s as well….

NSW ER 1903 HUNTER, polling at Raymond Terrace
Emily SPRUCE, of Raymond Terrace, domestic duties
Herbert SPRUCE, of Raymond Terrace, stockman

Cheers,  JM
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Offline judb

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #55 on: Thursday 10 December 15 04:08 GMT (UK) »
Oh, smudwhisk - many of us are very intrigued by your tantalising puzzle.

Hmmm - careful reading by JM which could just be correct!

There are some relevant mentions on TROVE,

Herbert SPRUCE, 63, (thus b abt 1863/4) was drowned in February 1927, when he was described as a widower with a grown-up family.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/125140070
The NSW index no for this death is 4651/1927 and his age is given there as 62. There are no parents listed in the index.


This article gives the name of the sons of Herbert and Emily SPRUCE: Raymond and William (more children listed in the article below). It also states that Herbert had lived in the area for more than 35 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/163409771

William's birth index entry:
NSW 29549/1890 registered at Raymond Terrace    
William H SPRUCE, parents: HERBERT   EMILY

This article is from the local Raymond Terrace newspaper and gives a list of his children, and states that he had been in the area for abut 30 years, having come from England where he had "some wealthy connections"  The funeral was at Raymond Terrace.  Unfortunately, according to austcemindex there does not seem to be a headstone. (I could not see a grave there for Emily/Emma either, nor is she listed at Sandgate cemetery which is nearer to Newcastle where the death was registered; not at Wallsend either)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/133107747

Judith

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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #56 on: Thursday 10 December 15 08:20 GMT (UK) »
Yes, it is a mystery.

May I also note that the NSW BDM online index does NOT have the 1887 Raymond Terrace marriage as SPRUCE=HYATT but rather it has it as SPRUCE=HYETT. 

So the index reads
4906/1887
SPRUCE, Herbert
HYETT, Emma
Raymond Terrace.
And, the PDF of that cert is readily Available.  :)  (Perhaps there's been a recent purchase under the new pdf system introduced in the past 18 months or so .... perhaps there's another family history buff interested in this family  :) )

I also checked using the reference no. only option,  there's only the one index entry for that marriage.

If I get a spare moment in the next day or so, I will re-visit my offline NSW resources and concentrate on HYETT, I am sure I looked through all the "H" surnames and the "B" surnames and the "S" surnames each time, but I will double check.   

I think John HYETT was aged 19, and arrived 1858 on the GrandTrianon, as per NSW State Records Index, and image from the passenger list.

http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4795/Grand%20Trianon_20%20Aug%201858/4_479500153.jpg&No=12

While the spelling variations can be insignificant, it seems that Emma and her likely father have both been recorded in official NSW records as HYETT, so across two generations.   As the NSW BDM 1887 marriage registration seems to have missed out on being reconciled, the actual registration held by NSW BDM is likely to be written in the clergyman's hand, so Emma's signature would not likely be there.  Perhaps though Emma Spruce was informant for some birth registrations of her children.   If so, it may be sensible to check how her maiden name was noted on those registrations.....

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #57 on: Thursday 10 December 15 09:11 GMT (UK) »
There is a public submitted tree that includes the NSW BDM mc  2 Nov 1887.   It is issued by NSW BDM and is very typical of those rural certificates that have not ever been subjected to even the first step of an official reconciliation.....  so it is full of those elusive blanks.   It was issued in 2013.

Here's a snip, that's a bit hard to decipher.  Seems Herbert was not old enough to give his own consent.    No mention at all as to Emma HYETT's age, so she gave to the Clerby that she was at least 21 years of age, and perhaps years older.   

Cheers,   JM

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

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Offline majm

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #58 on: Thursday 10 December 15 10:42 GMT (UK) »
To me, that section of the mc reads:

The consent of Chas Robert MIDDLETON P Magistrate Raymond Terrace was given for the Marriage of Herbert SPRUCE with Emma HYETT, the said Herbert SPRUCE being under the age of twenty one years.   Thos A Stanton, Minister.

I am not as certain of the Rev’d name, but I believe that Chas Robert MIDDLETON was the Police Magistrate at Raymond Terrace in the 1880s.   I also believe that he was the District Registrar of Births, Deaths, Marriages, and the Guardian of Minors, and his full name was likely to be Charles Robert MIDDLETON.   It is likely that he satisfied himself that Emma HYETT was 21 years of age or more when he was considering giving consent to Herbert's marriage.   (District Registrars were authorised to conduct civil marriages, he would be well aware of the regulations and the penalties for wrongly marrying a couple). 

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 

Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.

Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #59 on: Thursday 10 December 15 15:37 GMT (UK) »
May I assure you that the clergy were not permitted to conduct the marriage ceremony unless they had the required information about the parents of the bride and groom, particularly if either party were not yet 21 years of age.

Am I correct in reading this that if either party didn't actually know for certain the names of both parents, they would not be allowed to marry?

All evidence suggests that Herbert Spruce was illegitimate, if he didn't know the name of his father, would that have been a barrier to him marrying?  In England & Wales that information would simply have been left blank if the information wasn't known
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #60 on: Thursday 10 December 15 15:39 GMT (UK) »
I have just re-read the newspaper cutting, and I read it as 

IF this should meet the eye of EMMA BYATT, maiden name Emma BURCH, last heard of at Liverpool or Breeza Plains, write to your mother, Post Office, Binalong.

So I read it as BYATT, not HYATT....

Yes it does look like Byatt the more closely you look at it, but then Trove have misindexed a number of Byatt entries as Hyatt (as I've been submitting corrections).  That said, I can't see any Emma Byatt death that would tie in other than an Emma Mead marrying a John Byatt.  The Emma Byatt death ties in with an Emma Mead born to a Lewis and Charlotte.

As you have said yourself, what was written was often down to what was heard (especially if someone was illiterate) so its possible that Emma Birch's mother was illiterate when placing the newspaper advert and the person taking the advert thought they heard Byatt and not Hyatt, as with Burch instead of Birch.  I still think it refers to Emma Hyatt nee Birch.  I can find no sign of an Emma Burch marrying a Byatt in Australia or the UK, although that said there may not have been a marriage.  Its possible the 1877 notice is a red herring but it is also possible its just an error on the part of the newspaper.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #61 on: Thursday 10 December 15 15:39 GMT (UK) »
NSW ER 1878 LIVERPOOL PLAINS
James HYATT, residence, Tareela Station, in the Tamworth Police District.
Joseph BIRCH, residence, Werries' Creek, in the same PD

Electoral Rolls in that era were prepared by Police under the guidance/direction of the Police Magistrates, and the Police made verbal enquiries.  So accents/spelling variations and similar issues need to be taken into consideration. 

Interesting, John Hyatt's father was James.  It seems quite possible that was him, his brother Richard was residing at Uralla at the time so in the same area.  They both ended together in McLeod's Creek at the time of their deaths working as miners.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day

Offline smudwhisk

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Re: Emma Spruce nee Hyatt
« Reply #62 on: Thursday 10 December 15 15:41 GMT (UK) »
There's a death that is indexed at NSW BDM as Emma SPRUCE, with father as John, no mention of Emma’s mum.  The death was registered in the Newcastle District in 1907.  The Ref no. is 14745.  If this is your Emma, then perhaps you need to search for her as Emily in the 1900s as well….

No the death certificate does not include Emma's mother's name as I have purchased a copy of it from one of the transcription agents.

when she died in 1907, her death certificate lists her father as John Height and her birth place as Tamworth in 1869.

There is a public submitted tree that includes the NSW BDM mc  2 Nov 1887.   It is issued by NSW BDM and is very typical of those rural certificates that have not ever been subjected to even the first step of an official reconciliation.....  so it is full of those elusive blanks.   It was issued in 2013.

Here's a snip, that's a bit hard to decipher.  Seems Herbert was not old enough to give his own consent.    No mention at all as to Emma HYETT's age, so she gave to the Clerby that she was at least 21 years of age, and perhaps years older.   

From my original post:

An Emma Hyatt married Herbert Spruce at Raymond Terrace Weslyan in November 1887.  The entry contains no parent's details and as far as I can see, none of the witnesses are members of the Hyatt family.  However, when she died in 1907, her death certificate lists her father as John Height and her birth place as Tamworth in 1869.

I've not seen a copy dated 2013, the one viewable on an ancestry public tree is dated 2008 but was uploaded to the tree in 2013.
(KENT) Lingwell, Rayment (BUCKS) Read, Hutchins (SRY) Costin, Westbrook (DOR) Gibbs, Goreing (DUR) Green (ESX) Rudland, Malden, Rouse, Boosey (FIFE) Foulis, Russell (NFK) Johnson, Farthing, Purdy, Barsham (GLOS) Collett, Morris, Freebury, May, Kirkman (HERTS) Winchester, Linford (NORTHANTS) Bird, Brimley, Chater, Wilford, Read, Chapman, Jeys, Marston, Lumley (WILTS) Arden, Whatley, Batson, Gleed, Greenhill (SOM) Coombs, Watkins (RUT) Stafford (BERKS) Sansom, Angel, Young, Stratton, Weeks, Day