William Lilley - Hawker

[jennifer c]

1901 census 1 Mossford Street MEOT

Ellen Lilley 64 wid born Bethnal Green
William son 43 lithograph machine minder
Mary Ann dau 33 mothers help
Alfread J 26 shipping clerk all children born Whitechapel, all children single.

Jennifer

[Ladyhawk]

You mentioned the 1851 census for Ellen.

Have you noticed that there is a William Lilly, with wife Martha & son Samuel, living just a few buildings away?
The father is a rag sorter & the mother is a china hawker. The couple can be found on subsequent censuses with a growing family. No sign of young William, however.

There is no evidence that the father is or has been a mariner, but it caught my attention as the Lilly family is living so close to the Baker family in Shoreditch.

Is it possible that Martha was a widow with a son (maybe your William?) so he had a different name?

A William Lilly married in Shoreditch in 1845, with a possible spouse being Martha Horner Stone.

There may be no connection, of course, but it may be worth pursuing. I would also try other spellings ( I think Martha is on the 1871 census as Lille).

Here's the marriage details of that William & Martha

1 Apr 1845 St Leonard, Shoreditch
Martha Hornes Stone , needle woman father Samuel Horner Stone, spindle maker
William Lilly , labourer father George labourer
Both single, both minors, both resident Crooked Billet Yard, both made their mark (x)
as did witnesses Sarah Lilly & Samuel  Horner Stone   
Register Type:   Parish Register

and here they are on 1861c RG 9; Piece: 232; Folio: 49; Page: 44

13 Crooked Billet Yd
LILLY
William 37 Hawker
Martha 37 Bishopsgate
Samuel 12
Henry 10
Thomas 4
Emma 3
George 2mths
All others born Shoreditch

this looks to be their son William's Baptism

William Lilley born 2nd May Baptism 24 May 1863 St Leonard Shoreditch
parents William Lilley occ Hawker & Martha
abode 6 Crooked Billet Yard
Register Type:   Parish Registers

and here is the baptism for William & Ellen's son

William Lilley born 19 Feb Baptism 6 Mar 1864 St Leonards Shoeditch
parents William Lilley  occ General Hawker & Ellen
abode 10 Crooked Billet Yard

ADDED there are also these two baptisms at St Leonard Shoreditch

12 Dec 1869
Edward LILLIE son of William occ Hawker & Ellen
Above 6 Crooked Billet Yd

14 Nov 1872 born 8 Nov
Ellen LILLIE dau of William occ Hawker & Ellen
Abode 1 L???ouds Buildings ?illyard?

There are these birth/death entries reg. district Shoreditch

Dec 1869/Mar 1870 age 0 Edward Lilley
Dec 1872/Dec 1872 age 0 Ellen Lilly

[Ladyhawk]

My Grt, grt, grt grandfather was William Lilley a hawker from Shoreditch.

 All I have is a marriage in 1857 to Ellen Baker and the '71 census that also shows their 2 sons Thomas & William.

Struggling to find birth and death records and parentage for William, all I know is his father was also William, a sailor deceased sometime before 1857.

I take it that you have the marriage certificate to show your William's father was also a William, a mariner, and deceased?

Only posting this as there was mention above of a William Lilley, mariner not sure if there is a connection to your Lilley family from 1871 census  RG10; Piece: 441; Folio: 128; Page: 42
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VRJD-3HQ

28 Oct 1846 St Mary Magdalene, Woolwich
William Lilley f/a mariner
father William occ Coast Guard Service
Mary Banger father Samuel occ sauce manufactuer
Both single, both signed, both residence Woolwich
Witnesses William Air & San?ge?? no surname
Register Type:   Parish Register

Here they are on census

1851c HO107; Piece: 1630; Folio: 134; Page: 5 - Pegwell Kent
Samuel Banger 65 Shrimp Sauce Manuf
Wm LILLEY son in law 33 Barnstaple Devon occ mariner
Mary wife  33 London Middx.
Saml grandson 1 Pegwell Kent
Sarah Banger dau 26
Charl’ Carter dau 25
Ditto ditto grand Dr 8 months
Frances Webb servant 12

Possible burial and death entry

William Lilley Burial Date:   31 Aug 1856 Burial Place:   Kent, England

William Lilley 1856 Sep Thanet Kent Volume:   2a Page:   387

1861c RG 9; Piece: 538; Folio: 27; Page: 21
7 Pegwell St
Mary LILLEY Head W 44 Laundress Newgate Middx
Samuel 11 St Lawrence Kent
William 10 ditto
Mary 7 ditto
Sarah Banger sister 36

looks as if Mary Lilley has remarried

1871 RG10; Piece: 997; Folio: 5; Page: 6
John Finch 55 Greenwich Pensioner
Mary Finch 56 Laundress
Sarah Banger 47 sister

By 1881c John Finch is widowed

[bramcor]

I couldn't find the 1901 census with Ellen Lilley as a widow aged 64 in Mile End Old Town (on FindMyPast) but when I was trying to find the sons Thomas & William to see if there were any clues to what happened to their parents, I found a 1901 census with Thomas Lilley 43 (1858), general dealer, born Shoreditch, living at 16 Chapman Rd, West ham, Essex, living with his wife & children, & his brother William Lilley, 33 (1868), single & a lath line maker, born Shoreditch. The places of birth & the ages match well with the sons in the 1871 census with parents William & Ellen. In 1891, the brothers are living at Camden Street, Bethnal Green, both born Hackney (part of Shoreditch?), & Thomas appears fairly newly married with his wife & one baby. If these are the correct brothers, I would be considering the possibility that their parents have died since the single brother is not living with them.

[Ladyhawk]

1901 census 1 Mossford Street MEOT

Ellen Lilley 64 wid born Bethnal Green
William son 43 lithograph machine minder
Mary Ann dau 33 mothers help
Alfread J 26 shipping clerk all children born Whitechapel, all children single.

I couldn't find the 1901 census with Ellen Lilley as a widow aged 64 in Mile End Old Town (on FindMyPast)

 Here's the reference number RG13; Piece: 336; Folio: 106; Page: 45

[sherrbert]

Thanks for all the info. Hard to believe that the William's of Crooked Billet Yard are not related some how. For the record Thomas, son of William & Ellen was my grt. grt. grandad. Interesting to see he probably had 2 more siblings Edward & Ellen, that didn't survive.

[Ladyhawk]

I found a 1901 census with Thomas Lilley 43 (1858), general dealer, born Shoreditch,
living at 16 Chapman Rd, West ham, Essex, living with his wife & children & his brother William Lilley, 33 (1868), single & a lath line maker, born Shoreditch.

The places of birth & the ages match well with the sons in the 1871 census with parents William & Ellen.

 In 1891, the brothers are living at Camden Street, Bethnal Green, both born Hackney (part of Shoreditch?),

If these are the correct brothers, I would be considering the possibility that their parents have died since the single brother is not living with them.

sherrbert

Do you think the above mentioned Thomas Lilley on 1901c is your Grt. Grt. Grandad?

1901 census reference no. RG13; Piece: 1569; Folio: 23; Page: 37
and the
1891 census reference no. RG12; Piece: 263; Folio: 50; Page: 20 with
Thomas 28, Mary A 25 , Mary A 10mths & William Lilley 26

Mmm...  I wonder if this might be
Thomas Lilley age 20 Bethnal Green occ. Hawker Pictures Books on 1881census
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK6T-6B1T

Here's the marriage details for Thomas Lilley to Mary Ann, his father is named William

31 Mar 1890 St Philip, Bethnal Green
Thomas Lilley 27 General Dealer Father William General Dealer
Mary Ann Larner 24 father John labourer
Both single, both signed their name, both res. 79 Church Street
Witnessed by Wm Lilley & Mary Ann Olliff her (x) mark

for info. baptisms of their children

Mary Ann Elizabeth Nelly Lilley Born  30 Jun
Baptism 20 Jul 1890 St James the Great Bethnal Green
f. Thomas  occ Dealer m. Mary Ann 
abode 79 Church St.

Thomas Robert Lilley Born 20 Nov
Baptism    6 Dec 1891 St James the Great Bethnal Green
f. Thomas , occ Dealer  m. Mary Ann
Abode 24 Ponderson Gardens

Ellen Louisa Lilly
Baptism 8 Feb 1893 St Andrew Bethnal Green
f. Thomas  occ General Dealer m. Mary Ann
abode 49 Viaduct Street

James John Lilley born   12 Oct
Baptism 11 Nov 1894 St Jude Bethnal Green
f. Thomas  occ General Dealer m. Mary Ann 
abode  1 Poyser Street

William Richard Lilley Born :   8 Jun
Baptism 5 Jul 1896 St Jude
f. Thomas occ General Dealer m. Mary Ann
abode 1 Poyser Street

Ada Emma Lilley born 12 Nov
Baptism 5 Dec 1897 St Jude
f. Thomas occ General Dealer m. Mary Ann
abode 1 Poyser St

When Ellen Louisa Lilley married John Redgrave 24th Dec 1916 her father Thomas general dealer is noted as deceased

Her mother Mary Ann is widowed by 1911 and she died 1937

Mary A Lilley age 72 (1865)
Dec 1937 West Ham 4a    48

This looks to be Thomas' death entry

Thomas Lilley age 48 (1860)   
Dec 1908 W.Ham   4a   169

[sherrbert]

Spot on, Ladyhawk! That's my boy!

[bramcor]

Thanks for the reference numbers of that 1901 census I couldn't find, Ladyhawke. I have no idea how to use the numbers in FindMyPast to search but at least I could just use the street name & open at anyone who came up, then I "walked the street" till I found the right people. FindMyPast has that Lilley family transcribed as Tilley so they weren't coming up in my search.
Did the marriage record for William's son Thomas to Mary Ann show William as alive? I would suspect that the William who is a witness is the brother & that father William has died, & probably Ellen has as well. Free BMD has a good possibility in William Lilley, 47, died Shoreditch 1883, & an Ellen Lilley, 47, died Bethnal Green 1885. Perhaps someone has records for these deaths that show more details.