BUSHELL Mary Ann b 1845 Walmer Kent - missing child BUSHELL/ELLIOTT/MUDDDLE

[RayofGlamorgan]

My Great Grandmother, Mary Ann BUSHELL, was married twice and I have details of 6 children for her - 3 in each marriage.  In 1911 she stated she had had 7 children, 3 still alive (these 3 are all listed on the same census entry).  Thus I am trying to identify the 7th child.

I have the Kent FHS CD 32 which gives Walmer St Mary baptisms, marriages and burials for the relevant period.  I don't have the Walmer St Saviour details as these are not available on CD but have had separate confirmation on the second marriage children's baptisms in St Saviour.  I have looked at Ancestry census records, FreeBMD and the LDS Family Search site.

Details:

Mary Ann BUSHELL b 18 Jun 1845 Walmer, bap 13 Jul 1845 St Mary Walmer, d 4 Mar 1916, bur 7 Mar 1916 St Mary Walmer

Married William Adolphus ELLIOTT in Walmer St Mary on 22 Jan 1871, WAE d 28 Mar 1878 (drowned - he was a fisherman)

Their Children:

William Adolphus ELLIOTT b 29 Nov 1872 Walmer, bap 20 Dec 1872 (Walmer - prob St Saviour)
Henry James ELLIOTT b 4 Jul 1875 Walmer, bap 28 Jul 1875  (Walmer - prob St Saviour)
Walter Edward ELLIOTT b 11 Mar 1878 Walmer, bap 24 Apr 1878 (Walmer - prob St Saviour), d 12 Jul 1878, bur 15 Jul 1878 Walmer St Mary


Married James MUDDLE 14 Jul 1884 Walmer St Mary, JM d 6 Mar 1904, bur 10 Mar 1904 St Mary Walmer

Their Children:

James Alfred MUDDLE b 8 Aug 1885 Walmer, bap 6 Sep 1885 St Saviour Walmer
Maud Annie MUDDLE b 5 Oct 1887 Walmer, bap 9 Nov 1887 St Saviour Walmer, d 31 Dec 1894, bur 2 Jan Walmer St Mary
Violet Gertrude MUDDLE b 11 Apr 1891 Walmer, bap 17 May 1891 St Saviour Walmer, d 20 Jan 1895, bur 22 Jan 1895 Walmer St Mary [note there is a very probable error on the CD where her age is given as 9 months - she was 3 years and 9 months]

I can see no obvious extra BUSHELL, ELLIOTT, MUDDLE child in the St Mary, Walmer baptisms (though any such would probably be St Saviour which I don't have). 

There are 13 MUDDLES listed as b Eastry by FreeBMD - 12 are in my tree and I have identified the 13th in 1891 with his widowed mother (an incomer to Kent).  The BUSHELLs and ELLIOTTs b Eastry are too numerous to be so sure.

The LDS site lists a Mary ELLIOTT as being baptised in Walmer on 25 Jan 1876 but with no parents given.  However, there is no FreeBMD entry for her as b Eastry.  I cannot find her in 1881 or in St Mary Walmer burials before 1881.  If this was indeed MAB's child, then this would be too quickly after Henry James ELLIOTT for all the 'known' details to be correct.

Any clues, corrections or St Saviour detail confirmations please?

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray, me again. I have transcripts of the parish records for Walmer, St Saviour's included. This church only recorded Baptisms as marriages and burials were incorporated with the Mother Church, St Mary's.
The information you have is mainly correct but I can find no 7th child in either Deal or Walmer baptisms. This means that either the child was not baptised (unlikely) or that it was baptised in a different parish.
The information supporting what you have is as follows:
  2/11/1834 William Adolphus ELLIOTT baptised at St Mary's one of 8 children of George & Mary ELLIOTT, Waterman
13/7/1845 Mary Ann BUSHELL baptised at St Mary's one of 5 children of James & Mary BUSHELL, Waterman.
William ELLIOTT (34) s/o George, Waterman married Mary Anne BUSHELL d/o James, Waterman at St Mary's, Walmer 22/1/1871. Their children were baptised at St Saviour's which is in Lower almer where they lived and much handier:
20/12/1872 (29/11/1872) William Adolphus ELLIOTT
28/7/1875  (4/7/1875)     Henry James ELLIOTT
24/4/1878                      Walter Edward ELLIOTT

At St Mary's again, on 14/7/1884 James MUDDLE, 50, Widower of Lower Walmer, s/o John, Labourer married Mary Ann ELLIOTT, 39, Widow of Lower Walmer, d/o James BUSHELL, Mariner.
Witnesses were James BUSHELL & Annie BUSHELL
Their Children, baptised at St Saviour's, were:
  6/9/1885  (8/8/1885) James Alfred MUDDLE
  9/11/1887 (5/10/1887)  Maud Annie MUDDLE buried 2/1/1895 aged 7 at St Mary's
17/5/1891 (11/4/1891)  Violet Gertrude MUDDLE buried 22/1/1895 aged 9 months at St Mary's

Don't pay too much attention to the age discrepancies - ages on census returns, etc. were unreliable and inaccurate. This doesn't help with the missing child but I hope it confirms what you already have. I can provide details of siblings to Mary Bushell & William Elliott if required.

Kind Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi again AJ

Thanks for these confirmations and additional details.

However, I beg to differ on Mary Ann BUSHELL's siblings - I believe she was one of 12!
I have the following baptised at St Mary:
Rebecca Ann b 18 Jun 1845, bap 13 Jul 1845
Mary Ann b 19 Jan 1847, bap 7 Feb 1847
James Thomas b 10 May 1849, bap 8 Jul 1849
Thomas William b 6 Jun 1851, bap 6 Jul 1851
William Henry b 7 Sep 1854, bap 1 Oct 1854, 21 Oct 1876, bur 23 Oct 1876

I also have (and I guess these will be bap St Saviour following it being opened):
Fanny Elizabeth b 13 Jan 1857, bap 28 Jan 1857
Ann Maria b 18 May 1859, bap 8 Jun 1859, d 13 Jul 1865, bur 17 Jul 1865 (St Mary)
John Edward b 6 Jun 1861, bap 26 Jun 1861
Florence Jane b 28 Feb 1864, bap 23 Mar 1864, d 4 Feb 1867, bur 17 Feb 1967 (St Mary)
Ann Maria b 26 Jul 1866, bap 19 Aug 1866
Florence Jane b 22 Nov 1868, bap 16 Dec 1868, d 2 Dec 1869, bur 31 Dec 1869 (St Mary)
Henry Robert b 13 Feb 1873, bap 5 Mar 1873

All bar the two 'Florence Jane' daughters, I have from the census returns with their parents James and Mary Jane or Mary J.  The LDS site (with a bit of detective work on erroneous spellings: BUSHSELL and BUSHILL) gives all 12.  I don't believe James remarried to another Mary J (as was the case with Fanny Elizabeth's husband who, after FEB died, remarried to Fanny HORTON) as the ages of Mary are consistent (25, 34, 44, 54, 64) and she is always down as b Walmer across the censuses from 1851-1891.

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray

Yes, Mary Ann did have more siblings - I only looked at St Mary's as I wasn't concentrating on her. There were others baptised at St Saviour's but be careful when looking on Ancestry - there were two James and Mary Bushells.
A James that married Mary Jane Spain in 1844. He was a Grocer and later a Waterman. Ann Mary and Florence Jane were theirs, baptised 1866 and 1868 respec at St Saviour's. They had two more children baptised at St Leonard's in Deal. I feel there should be more somewhere gven the gap in the years.
The ones at St Saviour's belonging to James and Mary Ann were:
28/1/1857 Fanny Elizabeth
8/6/1859  Ann Maria
26/6/1861  John Edward
23 /3/1864  Florence Jane
The similarity in some of the the names to the other James and Mary is confusing. I hope I've got this right - I am surrounded by Indeces and Records and this is what I have come up with.
Grateful for your opinion
Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi AJ

Thanks for the caution.  I did know, but had forgotten!  However, I try to be careful at all times so hopefully have not fouled up.

Revisiting my data:

LDS baptism data - all bar Mary Ann (mother Mary) have mother Mary Jane.  All are Christened Walmer.  (I have a link between Mary Ann and Rebecca Ann in the 1901 census where Mary Ann's first son, William Adolphus Elliott, is with Rebecca Ann as 'nephew'.)

I also have a family tree drawn up by my aunt some 50 years ago - this shows 7 children with Fanny Elizabeth (d 24 Feb 1888 - I guess in or following childbirth of William James RALPH who was still alive and with his father in 1901 but I cannot find anything further on him) and the four who were identified above as having died young missing.

Census data - the ones I have identified have James and Mary J both b Walmer, and the ages are consistent: James 35/45/55/65/75 and Mary Jane 25/Mary J 34/44/54/64.  1851 and 1861 have children overlap.  Other James x Mary listings are not b Walmer.

The St Mary baptism data match the 1851/61 census entries where the children are shown with the same set of parents and there is child overlap between these two census entries.

Given the above, I am reasonably happy that I have a consistent and mutually supportive set of data for 10 of these 12 children and 'my' James and Mary Jane.  The exceptions are the 2 Florence Janes as I only have them from the LDS baptism data.

Could I ask you to confirm the St Saviour/St Leonards baptisms please - you list 4 and state 2 more were St S, these 6 plus 2 St Leonards and the 5 at St Mary makes 13 in all.  Of course, you may have an extra one I have yet to find.  I have Henry Robert as bap Walmer from the LDS site - is he one you have bap at St L?

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray,
More confusion - I seem to have discovered another set of Jame & Mary's at St Leonard's. Actually, there's yet another but that's back in the 1700's so I won't bore you with it.
The baptisms you asked for are:
St Saviour's:
19/8/1866  Ann Mary BUSHELL d/o James & Mary Jane BUSHELL, Grocer
16/12/1868  Florence Jane BUSHELL d/o James & mary Jane BUSHELL, Waterman
St Leonard's:
10/11/1847  Fanny BUSHELL d/o James Thomas & Mary BUSHELL, Farmer of Beach Street
 8/2/1850  Mary Ann BUSHELL d/o James Thomas & Mary BUSHELL, farmer of Nelson Street

Henry Robert BUSHELL was baptised at St Saviour's, Walmer on 5/3/1873, born on 13/7/1872 s/o James & Mary Ann BUSHELL, Mariner.

Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

Hi AJ

All the fun of the fair

I have found the St Leonards family in the 1851 census:
James 32; b Deal; Dairyman
Mary A 23; b Tilmanstone
Fanny 4; b Deal
Mary A 2; b Deal
However, I cannot find any of these after 1851 or deaths for them between 1851 and 1881.


Given the baptisms you have provided (thank you very much), I still believe the following, excluding possibly the first Florence Jane, are children of James and Mary Jane:

Baptised at St Mary:

1 Rebecca Ann b 18 Jun 1845, bap 13 Jul 1845
2 Mary Ann b 19 Jan 1847, bap 7 Feb 1847
3 James Thomas b 10 May 1849, bap 8 Jul 1849
4 Thomas William b 6 Jun 1851, bap 6 Jul 1851
5 William Henry b 7 Sep 1854, bap 1 Oct 1854, 21 Oct 1876, bur 23 Oct 1876

Baptised at St Saviour:

I still believe the following, despite your baptism data saying Mary Ann was the mother, are also their children, as the 1851/61 census overlap of children links them to James and Mary J.  The Fanny and Mary A children shown in the 1851 census data above would be too old to be these.
6 Fanny Elizabeth b 13 Jan 1857, bap 28 Jan 1857, d 1888 Q1 (prob 24 Feb) [m 30 Oct 1886 to William Henry Ralph, son William James Ralph b 1888 Q1 suggesting childbirth related cause of mother's death; WJR still alive and with his now remarried father in 1901]
7 Ann Maria b 18 May 1859, bap 8 Jun 1859, d 13 Jul 1865, bur 17 Jul 1865 (St Mary)

I also believe the following is another James/Mary J child as he appears with these parents in 1871 and is shown on my Aunt's tree:
8 John Edward b 6 Jun 1861, bap 26 Jun 1861

If the above three entries are incorrect in the registers as regards the mothers name, then it may be that the following is also a Mary J child:
9 Florence Jane b 28 Feb 1864, bap 23 Mar 1864, d 4 Feb 1867, bur 17 Feb 1967 (St Mary)

You give the following as Mary J children( though you have Ann Mary rather than Ann Maria)
10 Ann Maria b 26 Jul 1866, bap 19 Aug 1866
11 Florence Jane b 22 Nov 1868, bap 16 Dec 1868, d 2 Dec 1869, bur 31 Dec 1869 (St Mary)

Finally that leaves Henry - I have him with James and Mary J in 1881 and with his brother (and listed as brother) James Thomas in 1891.  He is also shown on my Aunt's tree.  So again I wonder if the baptism shown as mother Mary Ann  is correct?  I also wonder about the July 1872 birth for him as freeBMD shows him as having been registered in 1873 Q1.
12 Henry Robert b 13 Feb 1873, bap 5 Mar 1873

LDS gives mother Mary Jane for all but Rebecca Ann (mother: Mary) and, conflictingly, Henry Robert (1 entry mother Mary Jane, 2 entries mother Mary Ann)

I would love to have access to the St Saviour parish records and also baptisms post 1822 and marriages in Deal parish records - do you know if these are actually available in any easy way?

Ray

[AJ100]

Hello Ray,

Deal and Walmer St Saviour's Parish Records are only, as far as I know, available from Deal library. I have copies of the transcripts from there and, as you know, am happy to provide any information.

Very helpful list you sent of Bushell offspring. I went through the records and checked them all and they mostly coincide with the records. It appears that James and Mary Ann was a figment of my imagination, although she does appear in a couple of entries. I think I was confusing her with the Mary Ann who married William Elliott. Always a mistake to research more than one family at a time.

Anyway your list for St Mary's is accurate except that No 4, Thomas William is shown as having Mary Anne as a mother.
Similarly the St Saviour's list is the same except for No 10 Ann Mary where James is listed as a grocer, No 11 Florence Jane is St Saviour's, not St Mary's and No 12, Henry Robert is listed as baptised 5/3/1873, born 13/7/1872 son of James & Mary Anne.
There are two in total recorded as being the children of Mary Ann. I have no record of a Mary Ann marrying a James Bushell, only the Mary Jane SPAIN, minor, previously mentioned who married James Bushell on 20/8/1844.
So it is probably safe to regard the Mary Anns as Mary Janes and assume they are errors in the recording/transcript, not unheard of at all.

Regards

AJ

[RayofGlamorgan]

HI AJ

Thanks for all the data. 

James B as a Grocer - he is also given as that when Rebecca Ann married Robert SLADDEN (6 Jun 1869).  I wonder if the Grocer connection led to his grandson Henry James ELLIOTT (Mary Ann's second known child) becoming a Grocer (on the Strand).

I must get myself across to Walmer - I have no knowledge of ever being there but have so many ancestors, including my mother, from there.

Ray