Author Topic: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!  (Read 1759 times)

Offline janfurness

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I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« on: Sunday 31 January 16 15:47 GMT (UK) »
My  2x ggrandparents, who spent their married lives in Yarmouth, were William George Hambling (usually known as George) born Beccles and Ann White Dale born Plymouth. I have the following baptism records:

William George HAMBLING bap 7 Nov 1818 St Michael Beccles, Suffolk Parents:Hannah HAMBLING, base born.

And

Ann White daughter of John Deale Seaman Helicon and Mary Deale 20 November 1820 St Andrew's church. Plymouth. (The surname is definitely spelled Deale not Dale but this could be a spelling error made by the Plymouth registrar.)

In 1833 George's mother Hannah married John Goss in Gorleston and the couple lived in Yarmouth.

On 23 March 1841 "George Hambling", Seaman, married "Ann White" in Gorleston. I thought it would be interesting to get their marriage certificate-and this is where my problems begin.
Ann's father is given as "William White, sailor" and George's as "George Hambling, plumber and glazier."
Who are these men?

I am certain that I have the correct couple as Mary Dale-Ann's younger sister, was a witness.

I don't have any marriage record between Ann's parents, who I believed to be John David Dale and Mary Tubbs/Tubby (spelling varies, born Caistor on Sea.) It is possible that William White was either Mary's first husband and had died by the time Ann was born, or that Ann was illegitimate and adopted by John Dale. Ann's birth consistently appears as 1820 on Census records and the Dales as parents/siblings.
I had thought White might be a name from John Dale's family as there is a family tradition of using maiden names as middle names, but apparently not. Who was William White?

I'm more confused by the base-born George and his father George. At first I thought that Hannah had invented the name to appear respectable but would you also invent plumber and glazier? It seems very specific. Hannah was definitely baptised Hambling (to Jonathan James Hambling and Lydia Eggett.) So-who was George- a cousin?

I was quite happy with my records until this certificate -now I'm completely confused!  ??? ??? ???

Does anyone have any suggestions please?
Cooper- Berks, Herts, Wrexham,Birmingham
Garrett- London, Berks
Morton-Berkshire
Harvey- Essex
Hambling, Royal,Dale,Jackson, Tann, Boatwright Edridge/Etheridge/Uttridge -all Norfolk
Osborne-Norfolk and Northumberland/Durham

Offline groom

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 31 January 16 22:14 GMT (UK) »
Quote
William George HAMBLING bap 7 Nov 1818 St Michael Beccles, Suffolk Parents:Hannah HAMBLING

If no father is mentioned I would think it is almost certain that he was illegimate. It's not Hannah who would have invented a father on the marriage certificate, but probably William himself. Maybe at some point his mother had told him that his father was called George and was a plumber and glazier. What was John Goss's occupation?
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Offline polarbear

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 31 January 16 23:39 GMT (UK) »
Here is an old thread started by someone else that appears to be about the same family. Read further down to get past the Mary Boyce part, noted later by the original poster to be the incorrect wife.

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=285639.msg3032651#msg3032651

PB
We search for information but it is up to the thread owner to verify that it is correct.

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Offline janfurness

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #3 on: Monday 01 February 16 08:16 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for your replies- groom I forgot to include the words base-born from George's baptism record-I've added it now. If the marriage cert had just given the father's name as "George" I would have supposed William George invented it-it was the plumber and glazier part that confused me. It sounds like a real person and may be a relation of Hannah's but I can't find any record of him. (He could be from Suffolk, but if I post this there as well things may get confusing.)
Not a lot of call for plumbers in the beginning of the C19th I wouldn't have thought!
John Goss was a lawyer.

PB -I used the thread you linked this to when I first started out. There are a lot of tangled threads about  branches of my family on here-some of them wrong but good as a starting point. It does show the links between Ann & the Dale family in the censuses.
Mary Boyce married William George and Ann's son Joshua. (She was also the stepdaughter of Mary Ann Goss, daughter of John Goss & Hannah Hambling which may have caused the original confusion.)

I really would like to find a record for George Hambling and for William White. (I presume the latter had died by the time Ann was baptised which would explain John Dale being named as father on the baptism record)-BUT the name is common and, though I presume he was from Norfolk, he may not have been.
Cooper- Berks, Herts, Wrexham,Birmingham
Garrett- London, Berks
Morton-Berkshire
Harvey- Essex
Hambling, Royal,Dale,Jackson, Tann, Boatwright Edridge/Etheridge/Uttridge -all Norfolk
Osborne-Norfolk and Northumberland/Durham

Offline KGarrad

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #4 on: Monday 01 February 16 08:48 GMT (UK) »
Not a lot of call for plumbers in the beginning of the C19th I wouldn't have thought!

The Worshipful Company of Plumbers received their Arms and Crest in 1588, and they maintain that they were founded in 1365!

Also worth remembering that the term "plumber" originally meant someone who worked in lead - as glaziers used to do.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline janfurness

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #5 on: Monday 01 February 16 09:40 GMT (UK) »
Of course!-I'd never made the connection with plumb meaning lead-so a plumber then would have been a craftsman working with lead, rather working with domestic plumbing systems.
Interesting, thank you.
Sadly it doesn't get me nearer to George Hambling -but I do suspect he was a real person rather than a name made up to make the marriage certificate seem respectable, simply because it's so specific. I suspect someone would make up a more general occupation-sailor, fisherman, labourer etc.
Cooper- Berks, Herts, Wrexham,Birmingham
Garrett- London, Berks
Morton-Berkshire
Harvey- Essex
Hambling, Royal,Dale,Jackson, Tann, Boatwright Edridge/Etheridge/Uttridge -all Norfolk
Osborne-Norfolk and Northumberland/Durham

Offline groom

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #6 on: Monday 01 February 16 09:48 GMT (UK) »
That is why I wondered about John Goss's occupation, could he have given a supposedly father's name, but his step father's occupation?

 I wouldn't read too much into what is on the certificate, I've found that of the 3 certificates, the marriage one is probably the least reliable when it comes to ages, parents and occupations! I have one where the groom is older than he really was, his occupation is different and the name and occupation of his father is made up. Definitely the right person though as it is an original certificate that was amongst family papers.
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Offline janfurness

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #7 on: Monday 01 February 16 10:24 GMT (UK) »
That is why I wondered about John Goss's occupation, could he have given a supposedly father's name, but his step father's occupation?
If George had claimed his father was a lawyer I would have thought that was what happened. It could be made up either by William George or by Hannah, but equally it could be true. Sadly I haven't yet found a George Hambling that would fit, so at the moment the "made up" theory seems more likely.

I'm even more concerned about William White-why is he named on the marriage certificate but not the baptism? There are a couple of William Whites baptised in Yarmouth that would fit-and if he was a sailor he could have died at sea, leaving no burial record.
So far I've no marriage record between Mary Tubbs and either man. It's possible that Mary married at sea. John Dale was a gunner and apparently it was traditional for gunner's wives to sail with their husbands. Mary's first 2 daughters were born at sea and baptised in ports-Ann in Plymouth, Mary in Rothesay in Scotland. All subsequent children were born and baptised in Yarmouth.
Cooper- Berks, Herts, Wrexham,Birmingham
Garrett- London, Berks
Morton-Berkshire
Harvey- Essex
Hambling, Royal,Dale,Jackson, Tann, Boatwright Edridge/Etheridge/Uttridge -all Norfolk
Osborne-Norfolk and Northumberland/Durham

Offline roopat

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Re: I'm very confused by a marriage certificate-Ideas please!
« Reply #8 on: Monday 01 February 16 11:40 GMT (UK) »
Sadly it doesn't get me nearer to George Hambling -but I do suspect he was a real person rather than a name made up to make the marriage certificate seem respectable, simply because it's so specific. I suspect someone would make up a more general occupation-sailor, fisherman, labourer etc.

I have a lady in OH's tree who is well documented. Her birth cert shows her father as a porter. Her marriage cert shows her father with the name of her husband's stepfather & as "a paper manufacturer". (Husband a carpenter, his father deceased). Sounds grand - except the stepfather was an unemployed carpenter (they were all living together, including her 2 illegitimate children in the 1891census, shortly before her marriage).
In the next census the husband was a travelling salesman in stationery, so some kind of link to wherever she got her story from.  ::)

Never assume  ;)

Pat
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