Author Topic: A Keen Puzzle  (Read 2457 times)

Offline MattD30

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 02:24 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt,

Thanks for clarifying dates & sorry to pick up on it but glad I did as it did leave a bit of confusion  ;D

Annie

No problems. I wrote it quite late and quickly and there was a lot to include lol! :-)

Matt

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Offline jonw65

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 18:40 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Yes, the death record for Sylvester in Swindon Holy Rood you have in your notes is from Wiltshire Memorial Inscriptions.  Well, it is indexed as a burial date - 30 May 1745 - but I am supposing it's more likely to be the date of death. Son of Mary and John. Mary Keen is 12 Feb 1753, age 72, wife of John. No dates for John, so on balance I am thinking he isn't buried there.

The description of Sylvester is found searching on google books, its about the Methodists, more specifically the preacher John Cennick. He and his followers were abused and attacked on occasions, none more so it seems than at Stratton, near Swindon. Sylvester Keen is described as the "chief clubber"
Just found reference to "An Account of the death of Silvester Keen, the persecutor of Cennick at Stratton and Swindon in 1745" (Cylchgrawn Cymdeithas Hanes y Methodistiaid Calfinaidd, Volumes 10-12) Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we are able to see that extract!

I've had a quick look at your will, John Keen does say "my three sons" as though he hadn't any others. It doesn't sound too good, but would Sylvester have been old enough then to have had such a serious falling out? Maybe he had already been provided for (they always suggest that in the books) or was the main beneficiary of some other Keen relative.
Good luck with your investigation of the chancery case on your next visit to TNA!

Alethea - I still can't see a baptism. As you will no doubt have noticed there are a few Skiner baptisms in Chiseldon from about 1709, parents Edward + Mary. No real marriage possiblilty for those two (except funnily enough one in 1696 in Great Faringdon, Berks)
I am wondering though if there is a problem with the Chiseldon parish register? Seem to be no marriages that I can find there for a longish period up to about 1713/14, bar a few in 1698? That's from several different sources.
Ditto the baptisms (two sources), none from 1681 to 1706, bar some in 1698. Don't know whether the 1698 records are from a BT, or whether BTs would cover some of the possible gap in the parish register, if there is one.
There is that other Alathea Skinner bap Chiseldon 1742 to Edward + Martha. Which could put the idea into our heads that Edward might have been a son of Edward + Mary, possibly born in that "gap" in Chisdeldon, or maybe born elsewhere, and that he might have had a sister Alethea!
John

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Offline MattD30

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 22:01 GMT (UK) »
I've had a quick look at your will, John Keen does say "my three sons" as though he hadn't any others. It doesn't sound too good, but would Sylvester have been old enough then to have had such a serious falling out? Maybe he had already been provided for (they always suggest that in the books) or was the main beneficiary of some other Keen relative.
Good luck with your investigation of the chancery case on your next visit to TNA!

Hi John

I thought that info about Sylvester's burial/death was from the Wiltshire Monumental Inscriptions and looking back through my notes I think I made a note of it a while ago. The books you mentioned are probably in the British Library.

Regarding the will, John Keen does indeed say "my three sons" but in the Bill of Complaint both in the opening sections John is described as the father of the Complainants (Thomas, Richard and Wayte Keen etc) and father of the Defendant (Sylvester Keen) plus he is described as 'another son of the said John Keen deceased'. It is also stated that Sylvester is the 'eldest son and heir of the said John Keen' and that it is believed that various properties should have 'descended to him'. However it also looks like one party is disputing John's will since it states 'they do not know or believe that the said John Keen deceased did made such a will' and there is another quote about a document 'purporting to be such a will'. The question here is was there another will which they are now denying existed, or is it the will that I have a copy of that is being talked about?

Sylvester is clearly described as 'another son of the said John Keen' (see my next reply) and as I mentioned he is also described as 'another son of the said John Keen deceased' and also as 'the eldest son and heir'. However it also looks as if the Complainants are disputing Sylvester's claim to be the 'eldest son and heir of John Keen'.

I already have John and Mary's marriage (1701) and I a have found Sylvester's christening as well (Minety 1701/2).  Thomas Keen may have been born in Old Sodbury in 1704 but so far I don't have any details for Richard or Wayte Keen. Given the fact that Sylvester was born 1701/2 not long after the marriage of John Keen and Mary Wayte this would clearly make him the eldest son, unless someone was born before the marriage of course. In fact the Complainants seem to actually dispute the fact that Sylvetser is the 'eldest son and heir' of John Keen. So someone is lyning or at least mistaken, and given that I have Sylvester's christening record I am more inclined to believe that he was indeed John's eldest son. Maybe, as you said, he fell out with the family and was disinherited. Perhaps he was originally in John's will but after his involvement with the Methodists (the actions described in those books) John re-wrote his will and deliberately left Sylvester out. That would explain why he only names three sons even though there were clearly four.

Unfortunately I can't attach the images from the Bill which show these details but if you pm me and let me know your email address I will send them that way. I might also be able to send whole images and not just small extracts.

I will have to have another look at the Bill and Answer and also the record in 1721 as they are clearly linked. I am also hoping that I can find some info in the wills of any other parties mentioned. I have already ordered a copy of the will of Thomas Wayte who was Mary Wayt's mother. Hopefully this might name his grandchildren (ie Sylvester, Thomas, Richard, Wayt, and Margaret) and so confirm the names of John's children.

I'll send a second reply regarding the Skinner info.

Matt



 

Offline MattD30

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 22:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Yes, the death record for Sylvester in Swindon Holy Rood you have in your notes is from Wiltshire Memorial Inscriptions.  Well, it is indexed as a burial date - 30 May 1745 - but I am supposing it's more likely to be the date of death. Son of Mary and John. Mary Keen is 12 Feb 1753, age 72, wife of John. No dates for John, so on balance I am thinking he isn't buried there.

The description of Sylvester is found searching on google books, its about the Methodists, more specifically the preacher John Cennick. He and his followers were abused and attacked on occasions, none more so it seems than at Stratton, near Swindon. Sylvester Keen is described as the "chief clubber"
Just found reference to "An Account of the death of Silvester Keen, the persecutor of Cennick at Stratton and Swindon in 1745" (Cylchgrawn Cymdeithas Hanes y Methodistiaid Calfinaidd, Volumes 10-12) Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we are able to see that extract!

Alethea - I still can't see a baptism. As you will no doubt have noticed there are a few Skiner baptisms in Chiseldon from about 1709, parents Edward + Mary. No real marriage possiblilty for those two (except funnily enough one in 1696 in Great Faringdon, Berks)
I am wondering though if there is a problem with the Chiseldon parish register? Seem to be no marriages that I can find there for a longish period up to about 1713/14, bar a few in 1698? That's from several different sources.
Ditto the baptisms (two sources), none from 1681 to 1706, bar some in 1698. Don't know whether the 1698 records are from a BT, or whether BTs would cover some of the possible gap in the parish register, if there is one.
There is that other Alathea Skinner bap Chiseldon 1742 to Edward + Martha. Which could put the idea into our heads that Edward might have been a son of Edward + Mary, possibly born in that "gap" in Chisdeldon, or maybe born elsewhere, and that he might have had a sister Alethea!
John

Hi again

I will check the British Library for those books. It might also be worth checking the National Library of Wales as the book which the account of his death in it sounds Welsh.

Regarding Alethea I have also not found any suitable christening for her and I didn't even know about the one in 1742. Like you said, her father Edward might well be a son of Edward and Mary and would therefore he would be Alethea's brother. I might be able to find a clue if I can track down any wills relating to the Skinner family which refer to her. I have a similar problem with a family in Dorset, my ancestor Thomas Durnford was married to Frances Bennett and had several children including one named Barnaby Bennett Durnford. From this I did suspect suspect that her father might be named Barnaby Bennett and there was a will for a Barnaby Bennett (down as Barnabas in this case). Unfortunately this turned out not to be her father, but her uncle! In his will Barnaby describes her as 'my niece Frances Durnford, wife of Thomas Durnford of Shaftesbury St James maltster'. So perhaps Aleathia was either Edward's daughter or a niece. With a name like that it should be fairly easy to track her down. Again examining any wills might well help.

There are also some deeds held at the Wiltshire and Swindon Archives relating to 'leasehold property including land called the Butts and a cottage' and amongst the parties involved here are the names 'Keene' and 'Skinner' so that might also hold clues. Sadly though I cannot afford to get down to the archive currently.

Lastly do you know if the MI to Sylvester is online anywhere? I would be interested to see an image.

Matt

Offline MattD30

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 22:39 GMT (UK) »
would Sylvester have been old enough then to have had such a serious falling out? Maybe he had already been provided for (they always suggest that in the books) or was the main beneficiary of some other Keen relative.
Good luck with your investigation of the chancery case on your next visit to TNA!

That is quite possible. John and Mary were married in Minety in May 1701 and Sylvester was born in March 1701/02 and baptised 19 March 1701/02 in Hankerton. So he would be approximately 19 or 20 at the time of the dispute. Perhaps as you say he fell out with his family (maybe as a result of the actions mentioned in those books) or perhaps he was already provided for as you said. I am hoping that the other wills I have ordered will give more details.

Matt

Offline ..claire..

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 23 March 16 22:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt,

Sylvester Keen doesn't sound such a nice guy, (sorry) read this :page 361

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044026014720;view=1up;seq=383

claire
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Offline MattD30

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 24 March 16 00:06 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt,

Sylvester Keen doesn't sound such a nice guy, (sorry) read this :page 361

http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044026014720;view=1up;seq=383

claire

He certainly seems to be an interesting person to research.

Thanks for the link :)

Matt

Offline jonw65

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 24 March 16 00:37 GMT (UK) »
Hi Matt
I don't think there is an image of the gravestone online, although I'll run another check tomorrow. I'll send you my email in case you think I can be of any help at any time. I have to say I haven't been to TNA for  a few years, and when I did go, only once or twice did I call up anything like that! When I do go to Kew next it will probably be because of the London FHC being there (looks like it might be there for ever!)

Found another Alathia Keen! Not the one in 1771 in Wanborough, but
Alathia Keen, baptised 1772, Ogbourne St Andrew
parents Thomas + Susannah

thats just from the index to Wiltshire Baptisms on FindMyPast
Don't know if you have seen that one, or if it would fit in anywhere
John


Offline Rosinish

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Re: A Keen Puzzle
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 24 March 16 00:44 GMT (UK) »
Sylvester Keen doesn't sound such a nice guy, (sorry) read this :page 361

No surprise then claire as to him being left out of his father's will.

Annie
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