Author Topic: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research  (Read 4029 times)

Offline Stormybay

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« on: Monday 11 April 16 20:21 BST (UK) »
Hello
I had been hoping to visit the Powys offices when I come to the UK in June.  As I look at their website, I see that they are only open every second Friday and the listing only goes until the end of May.  I am unable to be in Llandidrod Wells on a Friday and am very disappointed that I will miss this opportunity.  I am trying to locate records for Llansainffraid yn Mechain for James Edwards who was 60 in the 1841 census (he was a farmer but I cannot read the location of his farm), or to find out more about the birth and death of his son, Thomas, I think 1812 - 1836.  I think my 2x great grandfather, William, 1833-1887 was raised by James.  I keep coming up blank on ancestry.com

First, could anyone please advise about this office in Llandidrod Wells for the month of June?

And, if that office is not accessible to me, could you please advise if there is another location, other than Aberystwyth where I can find records for Montgomeryshire?

Thank you
Stormybay
North Vancouver, Canada   
 
Monmothshire:  HOUSE, THOMAS, EDWARDS
Somerset:  HOUSE
Norfolk:  SIMPSON, THOMPSON, GRAPES, SPOONER, LOWNE, HOOKS, FOX
Suffolk:  CADE
Essex:  UNDERWOOD, CADE, DARBY
London & Middlesex:  THOMPSON, COCKRAM, CADE, BUTT, BANNER, MIDDLETON, NORRIS, DUNN
Wiltshire:  BUTT, HOUSE, GILES
Leicestershire:   GREENWAY
Denbeighshire & Shropshire:  EDWARDS, POSTLE, ROBERTS, HUMPHREYS, MORRIS
Lancashire:  BANNER, COZENS

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #1 on: Monday 11 April 16 22:17 BST (UK) »
it might be worth your while to take out a trial subscription to Findmypast or see if you can access it in a library. It has scans of many Welsh parish registers.

The only Thomas Edwards burial in 1836 in Llansanffraid ym Mechain is for a 28 year old resident of Melyniog Fawr. Also, there's no baptism in the parish for Thomas son of James.

James Edwards was buried 2 April 1849 aged 73, abode Llanerchymris, which is the name of the village where the farm was. Given the rounding down of ages in 1841, it's a good match for age.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #2 on: Monday 11 April 16 23:28 BST (UK) »
by 1851 James junior has the farm and the name looks like Tyn yr Iwen in Llanerch Emrys. HO107/2499 folio 452 pg 26.

I'm not finding baptisms in the parish records, so either the family are having the children baptised in another parish or they were non-conformist.

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Stormybay

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 12 April 16 17:07 BST (UK) »
Hello Osprey
Thank you for your efforts.
As far as I can tell, they were Calvinistic Methodists.  I agree with the death record for James and had found that one.  I have not found the birth of the daughter, Elizabeth nor of James Jr. nor have I found where he was in 1841, possibly working as a labourer on a farm nearby.  I guess with the death of Thomas, James was then the eldest son who inherited this farm.  But he did not keep William to help him run it, which raises other questions.
 
I have also found the marriage of a Thomas Edwards to Mary Williams in 1833, his death in 1836 and hers in 1834, which may have been the sequelae to child birth.  There is no evidence at any time of siblings for William and, while these are all assumptions, they fit together.  Some of this comes from the LDS Family Search site.

Because I only know the area vaguely, having been there in 2012, I do not know the language and it becomes even more complicated as I try to follow their movements from farm to farm - William married Anne Morris from Llanrhaidhr ym Mochnant whose records are kept in an completely different location, even though it is just "over the hill".  For example, where is Llanerch Emrys?  Is it an intersection of roads near Llansainffraid?  and would a postman know how to find Tyn yr Iwen? 

I have tried Find My Past, but these records are not showing up - I gather that the Methodist preacher took his records in his satchel as he moved from parish to parish, and that they may or may not have ever been recorded in a more official manner, but may have often disappeared. 

This is why I was hoping to actually go to the spot where people know the names and places and where the existing Montgomeryshire records are stored - which I believe is in Llandidrod Wells and that seems not to be accessible to me in June when I come.   And so, is there any other location where Montgomeryshire records might have been kept?

I always appreciate the effort that people like you make to help out perfect strangers.  Thank you.

Stormybay
Monmothshire:  HOUSE, THOMAS, EDWARDS
Somerset:  HOUSE
Norfolk:  SIMPSON, THOMPSON, GRAPES, SPOONER, LOWNE, HOOKS, FOX
Suffolk:  CADE
Essex:  UNDERWOOD, CADE, DARBY
London & Middlesex:  THOMPSON, COCKRAM, CADE, BUTT, BANNER, MIDDLETON, NORRIS, DUNN
Wiltshire:  BUTT, HOUSE, GILES
Leicestershire:   GREENWAY
Denbeighshire & Shropshire:  EDWARDS, POSTLE, ROBERTS, HUMPHREYS, MORRIS
Lancashire:  BANNER, COZENS


Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 12 April 16 20:21 BST (UK) »
I'm not sure that James inherited the farm as I can see no will on the National Library of Wales site.

https://www.llgc.org.uk/discover/nlw-resources/wills/

Possibly James took on the lease for the farm.

Llanerch Emrys is to the north of Llansanffraid - should show on this link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hg1/ 

I think one of the problems here is the closeness of the county boundary. Llanrhaedr ym Mochnant may be just over the hill, but it's partly in a different county.
http://www.montgomeryshiregs.org.uk/index.php/montgomeryshire/galleries/parish-map/mgs-parish-map-of-montgomeryshire-295

The records on FindMyPast are parish records only, those of the established church. Methodist records can be hard to find, especially from the times of the circuits. But marriages before civil registration will be in the parish church & burials may be as well as the chapels didn't always have their own graveyard. As far as I know, there's nowhere else that holds the Montgomeryshire records.

I spotted James jnr in 1841 when I was searching yesterday, I'll have another look.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 12 April 16 21:09 BST (UK) »
1841 Aithnen, Bodynvol, Llanfechain HO107/1441/2 folio 18 pg 3
James Edwards 25 farmer
Frances 30
Gwen Thomas 10 female servant
In case you don't have it, James Edwards married Frances Edwards in the parish church of Llansanffraid 6 Nov 1839, his father James, farmer, her father Robert, farmer. Both signed, & the witnesses were Thomas Edwards & Robert Edwards who also signed.

Bodynvol is now on maps as Bodynfoel. Aithnen is still a farm, you can search for postcode SY22 6UE.

I don't think Tyn Yr Iwen is still a farm. In 1841, it's on the census after New Inn, then a farm called Llanerch Emrys and before Four Crosses farm.

http://checkmypostcode.uk/powys/pen-y-bont-llanerch-emrys#.Vw1OHeTmqM8
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 13 April 16 11:52 BST (UK) »
while looking for something else, I spotted that Oswestry Library appear to have copy registers on microfiche & also monumental inscriptions for Gwern y pant.

http://www.oswestrygenealogy.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Parish-registers-monumental-inscriptions-merge-Issue-9-Mar-2014.pdf

So, are you working on James being baptised at Gwern y pant 31 Mar 1816, son of James Edwards & Ann Owen? Church was recently opened, so any older children would have been baptised elsewhere.
Possible burial for Ann 14 Oct 1826 aged 47 of Llanerchemrys.
James Edwards married Ann Owen 9 June 1806 in Llanfair Caereinion, both otp, both made their mark.

There are some more burials in Llansanffraid ym Mechain that could be from James junior's family.
Frances Edwards buried 15 Sep 1840 infant of Llanfechan
James Edwards buried 24 July 1841 aged 2 weeks of Llanfechan. Likely baptism for him 16 July 1841 in Llanfechain, son of James & Frances.
I haven't as yet found a possible burial for Mary Edwards, possible mother of William.
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb

Offline Stormybay

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 158
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 13 April 16 17:28 BST (UK) »
Osprey
You are doing a wonderful job for me. I agree with all that you have found.   I have been following in parallel with what I can find and it supports but it is not the same.  I did find the baptism of young James in 1816 , son of Ann and James.  The birth record I found shows them at the same farm Tygn yr iwen.  I thought that Ann may have died young, because in 1841, James Senior is with Elizabeth.  And I see that the farm where young James was living in 1841 is not far from his father. 
 
I also found Melniog Fawr death place of Thomas to be south of Llansanffraid off the Lletty Lane and there is a dairy farmer at that farm now, but apparently also a lot of modern houses. 

At the moment, I cannot remember where I found the marriage of Thomas and Mary, but I think I had access at some time to the parish records of the Llansanffraid Church - must have because I have a name William Williams as the father of Mary and Catherine Jones as her mother.  And I had news of their deaths.  I did that bit a year or so ago and will figure that out again. 

The sticking point is no christening of William with verification of the names of his parents. 

It is because I am making my trip in June to visit and stay in the area that I am once again trying to push through the brick wall.  Your work is helpful. Thank you.  I had little sense of the local geography last time I travelled there as it was heavy rain, dark and at the end of a long trip.  i had been looking in Denbighshire in Ruthin and Cefn Mawr where I, of course, found many records for Llanrhaehdr - I gather that the division in the parish went almost down the middle of the road.  And so this next trip was to be about going to the Powys records. 


Many thanks
Susan
Monmothshire:  HOUSE, THOMAS, EDWARDS
Somerset:  HOUSE
Norfolk:  SIMPSON, THOMPSON, GRAPES, SPOONER, LOWNE, HOOKS, FOX
Suffolk:  CADE
Essex:  UNDERWOOD, CADE, DARBY
London & Middlesex:  THOMPSON, COCKRAM, CADE, BUTT, BANNER, MIDDLETON, NORRIS, DUNN
Wiltshire:  BUTT, HOUSE, GILES
Leicestershire:   GREENWAY
Denbeighshire & Shropshire:  EDWARDS, POSTLE, ROBERTS, HUMPHREYS, MORRIS
Lancashire:  BANNER, COZENS

Offline osprey

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 12,224
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Powys Offices hours/Llansainffraid ym Mechain research
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 13 April 16 18:54 BST (UK) »
Will you be able to get to Oswestry Library to check the records there?

There is a marriage in Llansanffraid 15 Feb 1833 for a Thomas Edwards & Mary Williams, the witnesses were Ann Williams & James Davies. Of the 4, only Ann signed her name.
One problem with that is William's age, shown as 9 on the 1841 census which was on 7 June 1841, and is 28, 38 etc in following years when the census was the end of March or beginning of April, so working from the census he should have been born between 8 April & 7 June 1832.

 :-\
Cornwall: Allen, Bevan, Bosisto, Carnpezzack, Donithorn, Huddy, James, Retallack, Russell, Vincent, Yeoman
Cards: Thomas (Llanbadarn Fawr)
Glam: Bowler, Cram, Galloway, James, Thomas, Watkins
Lincs: Coupland, Cram
Mon: Cram, Gwyn, John, Philpot, Smart, Watkins
Pembs: Edwards (St. Dogmael's)
Yorks: Airey, Bowler, Elliott, Hare, Hewitt, Kellett, Kemp, Stephenson, Tebb