Author Topic: Kathleen Alice Pymm  (Read 2351 times)

Offline WendyM69

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Kathleen Alice Pymm
« on: Thursday 14 April 16 22:55 BST (UK) »
Looking for help finding information about Kathleen Alice PYMM (Croydon) born 1908/1909, my maternal grandmother. She married Thomas William ORAM in Croydon in 1938. He was 26 years her senior & he is classed as a widower on the marriage certificate (I have no details at all of his first wife, or whether there were children from that marriage) It also shows Kathleen's age as 30 years, so that's the only way I know she must have been born in either 1908 or 1909. Also her death certificate shows her age then as 46 in 1955, so that all marries up. She died at the Queens Hospital Queens road Croydon. She had 3 children, including Beryl (my mother, born 1933, now deceased) 
Although I have searched for a birth record for her, there isn't anything at all. I did originally find someone with almost exactly the same name, who I did think was her to begin with, however, that person was born in 1904, in Nottingham, so too early, and upon further investigation, that same person died in infancy, therefore that line of enquiry was completely eliminated.
Everything I have found out leads me to the obvious conclusion she must have been an illegitimate birth: 1. No record of her birth under the surname of Pymm. 2. On her marriage certificate there is no details of her father at all, it is left blank.
I have been in contact with Croydon adoption services in the vague hope they may have some information about the possibility she was adopted, however, I have yet to hear anything back from them. Of course, they may not be able to help at all because of confidentiality, even after all these years?
That's about as much as I have found out so far, but face rather a brick wall not knowing what her birth surname was so I can't get any further.
Any help to broaden the picture would be great. Maybe i'm not thinking laterally enough?
Thank you
Stagg
Oram
Pymm
Greenhead

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 14 April 16 23:14 BST (UK) »
Hi and welcome to Rootschat

The marriage was in 1938 but you have listed 2 children born 1931 and 1933 who seem to have been illegitimate as their births were registered with the same surname as the mothers maiden name 
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Offline dawnsh

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 14 April 16 23:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Wendy

Welcome to Rootschat  ;D

Please take a moment to read our guidelines for posting as we have a 'no living people' policy.

http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php

You may with to remove the names of those who are still with us. Please use the 'modify' to do this.

Specifically, what sort of information are you looking for? help with a birth, marriage or death cert? something else?

Dawn
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Sherry-Paddington & Marylebone,
Longhurst-Ealing & Capel, Abinger, Ewhurst & Ockley,
Chandler-Chelsea

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 14 April 16 23:21 BST (UK) »
There is no birth registration for a Kathleen Alice Pymm.  There is one for a Kathleen Pymm but it was in Nottingham in 1904

Do you have a copy of the 1938 marriage cert?  Does it show her as a spinster?  Does it give a name and occupation for her father?  Are either of the witnesses surname Pymm
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)


Offline avm228

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #4 on: Friday 15 April 16 00:35 BST (UK) »
Welcome from me too.

Does a birthdate of 26 February 1909 ring any bells in the family?  It looks as though Thomas Oram was much older than Kathleen, born in 1882.

If Kathleen was from Croydon originally there aren't many options - the only Kathleen Alice whose birth was registered in Croydon in the first quarter of 1909 was a Kathleen Alice Witt.  However she can be ruled out as other records show her as born 27 November 1908.
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline dawnsh

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #5 on: Friday 15 April 16 10:00 BST (UK) »
The lack of an entry in the birth index and 1911 census suggests she might have been born abroad or adopted. Before 1927 this would have been more of an informal arrangement.

An online tree suggests South Africa but I think that might be wrong as that family seem to end up in Knaresborough.

The electoral registers for Croydon (London or Surrey) before her marriage, as she would have been eligible to vote, might be useful but they aren't online.

I think we have to wait for the OP to come back with more information about the name of her father from the marriage cert.

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Sherry-Paddington & Marylebone,
Longhurst-Ealing & Capel, Abinger, Ewhurst & Ockley,
Chandler-Chelsea

Offline dawnsh

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #6 on: Friday 15 April 16 10:16 BST (UK) »
ok, just throwing a spanner in the works.

The 3rd child mentioned in the first post was registered as Oram mmn PYMN

in which case either this isn't correct or there are more births with that name combination
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Sherry-Paddington & Marylebone,
Longhurst-Ealing & Capel, Abinger, Ewhurst & Ockley,
Chandler-Chelsea

Offline WendyM69

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #7 on: Friday 15 April 16 21:08 BST (UK) »
Hi everyone
Thank you so much for all your help so far  :D
I didn't really think anyone would read the post, let alone help so much. I thought it was a very long shot, but obviously not.
I have modified the original post as I rather stupidly left it rather sparse on detail, and have added some more information.
I have removed the names of the 2 children that I think may still be alive, although i'm not 100% sure they are (thanks for the reminder about that one, I completely forgot!)
The 2 oldest children, including my mum, were born illegitimately, before the 1938 marriage, but as far as we know were Thomas's children, which seems odd, but I guess it was something to do with the shame of illegitimacy in those days? From what we know, Kathleen became his housekeeper after his first wife died and then started a relationship with him, giving birth to the first 2 children, then the youngest was born after they married. Certainly an odd set up, but I wouldn't be here if it hadn't happened, so I have to be grateful!!
Thank you
Wendy
Stagg
Oram
Pymm
Greenhead

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Re: Kathleen Alice Pymm
« Reply #8 on: Friday 15 April 16 22:28 BST (UK) »
Hi Wendy

As you know - there is no trace of Kathleen prior to the 1938 marriage entry so you really need a copy of the marriage cert to establish her marital status at the time (widowed/spinster etc) and her fathers name

There is an incoming passenger entry for a Kathleen Ada Pymm b 1910/11 from South Africa on 2 occasions - 1916 and 1932

1916 with Mrs Annie Pymm aged 37 and Phyllis Mary Pymm aged 18mths
1932 - same 3 people and also Captain William Pymm aged 52
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)