Author Topic: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW  (Read 2067 times)

Offline Tracey Asteroid

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Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« on: Tuesday 26 April 16 14:32 BST (UK) »
Hi and thanks for reading!

I have a pic of a wedding certificate for my husbands great-great-great grandparents: Patrick Joseph HOWARD to Blanch EVANS on the 30 November 1892 in Coonamble NSW. They were married by the minister of the Church of England and it is registered as certificate 3429 in the NSW registry.

Patrick is noted to be a 31 year old Laborer, who might have been born in Campbelltown (black mark over middle of this word/words), though usually residing in Coonamble. His parents are listed as John Thomas HOWARD, a miner, and Anne HOWARD (KEANE).

The most likely birth certificate I have identified is for a Patrick HOWARD born to John HOWARD and Johannah (no maiden name) in Scone, NSW 1864. This, of course, only works if the "Campbelltown" on the wedding certificate was wrong, and if his mother used Anne instead of Johannah. This would also make him 28 when getting married..... and that is just too many discrepancies for me to be comfortable with.

I have been unable to identify any possible death certificate matches. His last child was born in 1909 in Quambone, NSW so his death must have been after that. There is no matching records of any Howard's in the Coonamble or Quambone cemeteries. Though I do have an electoral match for him and his wife, living in Quambone in 1913.

I also know that his wife, Blanch, died in the Sacred Heart Hospice in Sydney in 1920, so maybe he was living in Sydney with one of his children at that time (????). The children (who were all listed on his wife's death certificate and confirmed with birth certificate records) are:
Michael Henry (1893-1967)
Kathleen Alice (1895-1977)
Teresa Sophia (1897-1985) * my husband's great, great grandmother
Mary Philomena (1899-)
Minnie (1903-)
Irene Blanch (1905-1989)
who were all born in Coonamble. The last two born in Quambone:
John Joseph (1908-)
Patrick James (1909-)

I would really like to find out where Patrick Snr was born and confirm who his parents were. I am on a mission to track down how all the ancestors in my kids family trees arrived in Australia, so I am not that worried about locating a death certificate (though if you find one, I will not say no!).

Thanks again for reading,
Tracey
 


HOWARD, LE JUGE, SCHROEDER all Australian

Offline majm

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 01:39 BST (UK) »
Hi and welcome to Rootschat

May I ask for some further information from that NSW marriage cert.

 :) Who were the witnesses   (perhaps extended family  :) )
 :) What denomination for the ceremony  oops  according to the rites of  so it was C of E  at Coonamble  :) ....

Does the picture of the Wedding Certificate show that the NSW BDM has fully reconciled their holdings with the church registers?

There's several different locations for Campbelltown  :) so is there any marks to suggest it was not the NSW Campbelltown?   

Campbelltown New South Wales
Campbelltown South Australia
Campbell Town Tasmania
Campbelltown Victoria

I will have a look through some of my Western Division of NSW offline resources and post back shortly.

Cheers,  JM   (edited to sort out the denomination, I had missed that info from the Opening post)


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Offline majm

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 02:05 BST (UK) »
NSW Electoral Roll 1902/3 DARLING, polling at
Coonamble
Arthur John HOWARD, of Coorawang, selector
Patrick HOWARD, of Coonamble, labourer
Quambone  NONE with the surname HOWARD  :)

NSW ER 1878 THE BOGAN
John HOWARD, residence, Balar
Richard HOWARD, residence, Balar
Samuel C HOWARD, freehold Coonabarabran
Patrick KEAN, residence, Dubbo, Macquarie River

NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN
Charles Augustus HOWARD, residence, Coonamble, Castlereagh River

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 02:59 BST (UK) »
Hi

From Blanch's death registration what was her status .... widow, or married woman?  Who was the informant .... Patrick or someone else?

Is this her?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16882316  smh 3 Jan 1921 ...  (8 1/2 Eaton Street, Camperdown)

NSW BDM online has Blanch A HOWARD.  #15/1921

Rookwood has Blanch A HOWARD, aged 47, service 3 Jan 1921 burial Sec*M2*4**683
http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/deceased-search/

I wonder if Patrick was older than 31 when they married.  Blanch would have needed consent to marry as she was not yet 21 in 1892. 

Re Camperdown address .... City of Sydney Archives has uploaded, so free to search  :) the Sands Directories.   Enjoy  :)
  http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
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Offline majm

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 03:36 BST (UK) »
Hi Tracey,

I am not sure how familiar you are with the NSW BDM marriage records 1856-1895, but basically Civil registration commenced in NSW in 1856, but the Churches and the Registrar General’s Office did not co-operate with each other until 1895, so NSW marriages prior to 1895 often have blanks in various columns.   When all the columns have the full information, then the document includes notations showing how NSW BDM obtained that information.

From an online submitted tree, I see a certificate issued by NSW BDM back in July 1993.  The current format used is different again from that record, but the same information should be available.

Anyway, looking at that image I notice that it has been altered by others, without the NSW BDM officers validating the changes.
Some of the alterations are printed, perhaps to ‘enhance’ the longhand writing of the Reverend in whose hand it was recorded and sent to NSW BDM.

This is my transcription of the document as it currently reads
24
30 November 1892
Coonamble
Patrick Joseph HOWARD, Bachelor, born Campbelltown, Labourer, 31, usual residence Coonamble, with parents as John Thomas HOWARD, a miner and Anne Howard KEANE,
And
Blanch EVANS, Spinster, born The Merri Merri nr (near) Coonamble, Dressmaker, 21, usual residence, Coonamble, with parents as William EVANS, labourer and Sophia Evans COE,

Witnesses Michael GRAYNDLES and Mary EVANS.

Married in the house of Mr JUDD, according to the rites of the Church of England, by John A  COOPER, Officiating Minister

May I please mention that I find it very unusual for the ages of the bride and groom, and their parents names to be noted on a rural NSW marriage in 1892, particularly as it is a C of E marriage. 

May I suggest that the mc was obtained in 8 July 1993, and since that time various people have considered and researched and ADDED information to it.   For example, likely they have added the names of the parents of both the bride and the groom.   I expect they obtained that information from the Church register.   There is NOTHING on the document to show that NSW BDM had reconciled this mc to the Church registers. 

May I mention that the Rev Cooper’s handwriting ought to be the ONLY handwriting on the record, and that from his signature you can see that he does NOT form the ‘r’ to end a word in the same way as the person who printed Labourer or Dressmaker.    May I also mention that it is unusual for both the married surname and the maiden surname to be noted under the heading mother’s name and maiden surname.   I would expect it to show only the maiden surname and any other former surnames, but NOT the then current surname for their mothers.  (All the details in that column are not in the Reverend’s hand, and I would NOT actually anticipate to find any info under that heading UNLESS the NSW BDM document noted which register provided that information, and when it had been reconciled. 

In the ‘white space’ at the bottom of the document, in someone else’s longhand, I read
Blanche Anne Evans
 born 20/5/1872 Baptised 22/4/1873 by Rev Henry Dicker, Parish of Coonamble, County of Leichhardt.   
Daughter of John and Sophia Evans, - Farmer
Yarra Yarra Quambone.
I ASSURE YOU that that is definitely NOT information provided by NSW BDM based on the registration of the marriage.

It may well be accurate information, but, just like the information regarding Blanch's and Patrick's ages, places of birth, occupations details of his parents,  it is not information that was supplied to the NSW BDM when registering the marriage.

May I suggest you consider obtaining an official transcription of the 1892 marriage.  If those elusive blanks are on that transcription, then my advice would be to consider the following thread which I prepared some years ago now.  The Official transcribers transcribe the NSW BDM register, and if the 1892 marriage has been reconciled by NSW BDM, they will note the NSW BDM references for those additions to the mc.  :)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html

Cheers,  JM   
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline judb

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 03:51 BST (UK) »
Re the death of Blanch(e) HOWARD, registered Jan 1921.

There is no "Eaton St" in Camperdown but there is an Eton St.  According to the Sands Directory (which JM kindly linked), Jan 1921,  Arthur BURSILL lived at 81/2 Eton St.  Kathleen A HOWARD, the eldest daughter of Patrick and Blanch married Robert E BURSILL in 1919 so it seems safe to assume that this is the connection.

Not that it's any help in finding Patrick!

Judith
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"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

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Online Dundee

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 04:29 BST (UK) »

Anyway, looking at that image I notice that it has been altered by others, without the NSW BDM officers validating the changes.

Cheers,  JM   


Wow!  :o

So the name of Blanch's father (William) has probably been transcribed from the death cert (his name was John) so you have to wonder where the forger got the information about her mother and Patrick's parents.  It would be good to think that they did access the church registers, but goodness me it could be just nonsense.

Debra  :)

Offline majm

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 04:32 BST (UK) »
Exactly Debra,  which is why I am suggesting obtaining the Official Transcription.

Cheers,  JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
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All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline Neil Todd

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Re: Patrick Joseph HOWARD 1861-1920 Coonamble NSW
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 07:46 BST (UK) »
There is a death on the Queensland Death Register Index for a Patrick HOWARD in 1951 in Brisbane.
Reg # B35201 In remarks it says born NSW aged 84 years. This if correct, gives a birth year of 1867.
Whoops,  :-[  no parent names are on the register.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=DeathSearch

There are a few incidents with a person by that name in the period 1920 in the newspapers, mostly around the St George area and a property called WYENBAH. This is from a search on TROVE. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hj8/

Neil
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