Author Topic: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM  (Read 3338 times)

Offline Chatwood2016

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #18 on: Sunday 01 May 16 10:47 BST (UK) »
Hi again Claire

Sorry for radio silence, gardening followed by exhaustion.   I have checked military records before, the Arthur Mottram I discovered lived at Freshelton Street and was deemed 'mentally defiant' and discharged (probably saved his life).  By word of mouth, I know that 'my' Arthur served in Ireland (?is this the link, did the family all go to Ireland)  Iceland (didn't even know that was important in WW1) Germany and France.  He was badly wounded in France, bayoneted in the leg and suffered shrapnel wound to the head.  He never fully recovered and had pain in his head for the rest of his days.  We can't even imagine the horrors seen and experienced.  On a brighter note a contact on Ancestry found a marriage between Nora, surname Russell or Bruce, to Frederick C Moore, 1950 Leicester.  She was insatiable!

Julie

Offline millymcb

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #19 on: Sunday 01 May 16 12:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Chatwood 2016

Welcome to Rootschat. Glad to see you have found some help and how interesting it is from a former neighbour.

I would second the theory that the family were quite likely to be Eastern European Jews. At the beginning of the 20th Century there was much anti eastern European and Jewish immigrant sentiment in UK.
In  1905 The Alien Act was passed partly as a result if this.

There is lots written about it but here is a starting point
www.20thcenturylondon.org.uk/aliens-acts-1905-and-1919

There was also the beginnings of anti Bolshevik sentiment due to unrest in Russia and then the Revolution in 1917


You can see why people may have felt changing their names was a good idea. I do think it interesting that they didn't make an obvious name change similar to their own though so perhaps their was some other reason behind the choice.


Milly
McBride (Monaghan, Manchester), Derbyshire (Bollington,Cheshire), Knight (Newcastle,Staffs), Smith (Chorley, Lancs & Ireland), Tipladay (Manchester & Yorkshire) ,Steadman (Madeley,Shropshire), Steele (Manchester,Glasgow), Parkinson (Wigan, Lancashire), Lovatt, Cornes & Turner (Staffs) Stott (Oldham, Lancs). All ended up Ardwick, Manchester
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline millymcb

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #20 on: Sunday 01 May 16 12:35 BST (UK) »

She is living as wife (though I believe not married) with ARTHUR LEONARD MOTTRAM in Blackpool and environs on the 1911 Census.  She had three children with Arthur that I know of, NORA EILEEN born 1906, IVY born 1908, HAROLD born 1910. 


Hi Chatwood2016

Just to clarify...are these the three children you believe she used Clee as surname for birth registration?

Do you mean that the children were called Clee? Or just that she used Clee herself (as her own name or a maiden name) but the children were Mottram? Or something else?

Do you have the birth certificates? Is Arthur Mottram listed as the father for all three? If not then who is?
We're the births registered near Blackpool?

I was just wondering if there is a previous relationship with Mr Clee and she got together with Arthur later.

Also, how a sure are you that Agnes Markesky is the mother of these children. Or is it a theory you are trying to prove?

Milly
McBride (Monaghan, Manchester), Derbyshire (Bollington,Cheshire), Knight (Newcastle,Staffs), Smith (Chorley, Lancs & Ireland), Tipladay (Manchester & Yorkshire) ,Steadman (Madeley,Shropshire), Steele (Manchester,Glasgow), Parkinson (Wigan, Lancashire), Lovatt, Cornes & Turner (Staffs) Stott (Oldham, Lancs). All ended up Ardwick, Manchester
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Chatwood2016

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #21 on: Sunday 01 May 16 13:10 BST (UK) »
Thanks Milly

You are asking all the right questions.  The MARKESKY name is just a theory.  I have tried scores of scenarios to try to locate her.  I have obtained the birth certificate for Nora Eileen, her father is Arthur Leonard MOTTRAM (she is registered under MOTTRAM) her mother's former name is given as CLEE.  On the 1911 Census Arthur and Agnes have 3 children Nora (1906) Ivy (1908) Harold (1910) all born Blackpool. Ancestry have a public tree that has an individual HAROLD MOTTRAM born 1910 Blackpool, father Arthur  Leonard MOTTRAM, mother Agnes CLEE.  He has married a girl from Tipperary and settled In Ipswich, had two children and eventually died there.  I didn't buy Harold or Ivy's birth certificate.  I have contacted the tree owner, but have not had a response so far.  I'm assuming that they purchased his birth certificate (trying to save money here!) I have no leads on IVY MOTTRAM.  Nora and Ivy are registered under MOTTRAM, Fylde district, the only Harold MOTTRAM born 1910 is BUCKLOW district.

I am open to all suggestions.

Julie


Offline millymcb

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 01 May 16 13:28 BST (UK) »
That is what I thought you meant but best to check :)

So,  the problem is that you can't find anything for Agnes Clee and you thought maybe she changed her name.

And one potential person is Agnes Morkewsky as she is born right place right year. There is also the plumbing occupation link.

Further complication is lack of Agnes and Arthur marriage. If you could find that it would help a lot.

I wonder what Arthur put on his later marriage cert.. single,widower,divorced?

Milly
McBride (Monaghan, Manchester), Derbyshire (Bollington,Cheshire), Knight (Newcastle,Staffs), Smith (Chorley, Lancs & Ireland), Tipladay (Manchester & Yorkshire) ,Steadman (Madeley,Shropshire), Steele (Manchester,Glasgow), Parkinson (Wigan, Lancashire), Lovatt, Cornes & Turner (Staffs) Stott (Oldham, Lancs). All ended up Ardwick, Manchester
Census info is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Chatwood2016

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #23 on: Sunday 01 May 16 14:01 BST (UK) »
Good thought Milly,  I will ask my contact, who I believe has the marriage certificate.  He is related to the second marriage.  I speculate he put single.  The family just had some creeping thoughts that maybe he'd been 'married' before as it seemed at 38 they would have been surprised if he hadn't, and also he often talked of his lovely golden haired Doris (your guess is as good as mine on this!  I applied and have, a birth certificate for a Doris Mottram born 1911, but mother is given as Annie Mottram, mother's help, no father.  I've also found a 'Mrs A Mottram and daughter D Mottram on passenger lists to Canada, the return trip gives their names as Annie and Dorothy - if I remember correctly - so these are probably the same people - it does throw up the question that perhaps Agnes was Annie - or more than likely no connection at all)  There is also the Irish connection.  Nora was in Belfast and married there in 1922.  I don't know where Harold was, but he married a girl from Tipperary.  Shouldn't speculate, but it does sound like the family were in Ireland.  It would explain the lack of activity on any British records.  I know now that the Moore connection occurred in 1950 when Nora married Alfred Moore in Leicester.  Feel I have tried every combination of names known to man.  Of course there is a massive possibility that Agnes was not born in Staffs at all.  I've checked workhouses, re-marriages of parents, orphanages, the 1901 census for Northern Ireland, but it is easy to miss something staring you in the face.  It is quite a conundrum!

Julie

Offline jorose

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 01 May 16 14:09 BST (UK) »
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
shows Nora Eileen and Ivy, both with mmn Clee.  Harold is not the Herbert H b. 1910 in Fylde area - that's a Herbert Henry, mother's surname Robertson.
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline isobelw

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 01 May 16 14:25 BST (UK) »
A Mary Hannah Clee was born in Wolverhampton in 1889. Could she be a possibility?  it looks like she was illegitimate, the daughter of Martha Maria Clee. In 1891 Mary H Clee is with her maternal grandparents Samuel and Emma Clee but no sign of Martha, who had married William Perry in 1890 in Wolverhampton. In 1901 Martha Perry (married) is living with her unmarried sister Elizabeth Clee, her mother Emma and daughter (down as Hannah Perry age 12 on the census).
As Agnes Markesky appears to be accounted for (living with other family) in the last available census it would seem unlikely that she was the Agnes you are seeking.
Isobel
Clotworthy, McMahon, Saunderson, Culley (Ireland & Scotland)
Weatherall, Greer (Ireland & Scotland)
Hamilton, Johnston, Dawson, Rennie, Wright (Clackmannanshire)

Offline Chatwood2016

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Re: Agnes MARKESKY born Bilston Wolverhampton 1889 family with Arthur MOTTRAM
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 01 May 16 14:32 BST (UK) »
Hello Isobel

Thanks so much for responding.  I think these are the kind of complicated relationships I need to look at, as I'm short of simple solutions.  Will do some rooting around.  Thanks for flagging it

Julie