Welsh family from Crieff

[Wilton Endeavour]

Looking for some help on this family , please.
I want to trace backwards from Sidney Welsh, born 26th Feb 1917, in Cameron's Buildings, East High Street, Crieff. Sidney's parents were William Thomas Welsh, who was a Cruelty Animal Inspector and Sarah Kowen. I believe this maybe Cowan, but that's how it was written on the cert. William and Sarah were married on 25th Nov 1891 in Norwich. I have some more info on the various Welsh connections who appear to have resided in the Glasgow area.

Wilton Endeavour 

[Annette7]

I'm so sorry to have to tell you that neither William Thomas Welsh nor Sarah Kowen (correct spelling) were born in Scotland.

In 1901 they are living with 2 children - Albert W. bc.1895 England and Nora bc.1897 England - in Edinburgh.   Birthplaces for both William and Sarah given as England.   Birth registrations show son Albert William was born in Norwich, daughter Nora born in Carlisle.  William Thomas Welsh birth registered Mar.qtr.1865 Carlisle, Cumberland - in 1871 he is shown as a 6yr old living with his grandmother Ann Welsh in Castle Sowerby, Cumberland.   I cannot find him on the 1881 census anywhere but in 1891 he is in the army in Norwich - 8th Kings Royal Irish Hussars.  His service record shows he enlisted 26/8/1885 in Sunderland and when discharged on 3/3/1898 he was a corporal.  It also shows he'd married Sarah Kowen 25/11/1891 at Catholic Chapel, Willow Lane, Norwich.  His next of kin was initially Sarah Mattinson (aunt) but this was later altered to Mary Hind, mother.    It looks like he was the illegitimate son of Mary Welsh bc.1841 (sister Sarah bc.1847).   Sarah Welsh married David Mattinson Dec.qtr.1867 Penrith and Mary Welsh married Robert Hind Dec.qtr.1866 Wigton - their parents were William Welsh bc.1812 Rockcliffe, Cumberland and Ann (bc.1816 Dacre, Cumberland).   William senior had died by 1861 when Ann shown as a widow.

Sarah Kowen birth reg'd June qtr.1874 Depwade, Norfolk - she died 12/12/1950 in Kirkintilloch, Dunbarton and her parents are given as John Kowen, Railway Worker, dec'd and Mary Ann nee Stringer, dec'd.   The 1881 census shows the family living in Norwich St. Clement and Sarah is shown as born in Diss, Norfolk.   Her father John bc.1843 Inniskilling, Ireland and mother Mary Ann bc.1848 in Diss.   

Sorry to disappoint you in that there are no links to Scotland for William Thomas Welsh or Sarah Kowen.

Annette

[Wilton Endeavour]

Thanks Annette for the reply. That would be why I could not find Sidney's parents on SP. It's a shame that there are no links to Scotland. But their Son, Sydney or Sidney does have Scottish links. So he links to Scotland via his wife. He was a cinema operator, age 29, when he married Helen Alexandra Lawson in Glasgow. Helen's parents were Thomas Lawson, Sawmill Labourer and Mary Weir. Thomas Lawson, age 24, married on 27th June 1919, at 21 Possil Road, Glasgow. And he married his neighbour, Mary Weir, age 18, who lived at 21 Possil Road, Glasgow. Thomas was living at 23 Possil Road. Thomas was a Ship Rigger and Mary Weir was a Chocolate Packer. Now if you take their parents one step back in time. You end up with Robert Lawson, Baker and Mary Farrell. And on the Weir side, you have Alexander Weir, Ironmoulder and Mary Knox. Going back to your earlier points on William's and Sarah's deaths. William, died on 14th March 1946 at 3 Craigmount Street, Kirkintilloch. William was aged 82 and a retired Cinema Manager. William's parents were Isaac Welsh who was a farmer and Mary Welsh. Sarah was aged 76 when she died at 3 Craigmount Street, Kirkintilloch. Sarah's parents as you mention were John Kowen, Railway Worker and Mary Ann Stringer. So if anyone can trace Isaac and Mary in the census records.
Going onto another branch of the Weir family. We have Alexander Weir, born Forres, Aberdeenshire and his wife, Jane, born Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire. I cannot find their births on SP. But in 1891, they had made their way down to Glasgow where both were living in Roodspark in Govan. Alexander who was an Iron Driller, age 41 and Jane was age 37. Alexander and Jane have children Jeanie 8, Sarah 6, John 4 and Rachel 2. All the children being born in Govan. Alexander and Jane's birthplace are listed on the census as above. But Jane's maiden surname isn't known. Unless anyone can help me find it. By 1901, they are living in Langlands Road, Govan. Alexander, age 49, Iron Driller Foreman and his wife Jean, age 45. Rachel seems to have disappeared by 1901. But the other children are still around. Jeanie who was a Pupil Teacher, Sarah who was a Scholar and John who was a message boy in a ship yard. Looking forward to the replies if anyone can solve them.

Wilton Endeavour   

[Annette7]

Regardless of what has been entered on William Thomas Welsh's death certificate regarding his father, I am pretty certain he was the illegitimate son of a Mary Welsh.   There is no Isaac Welsh who was a farmer - indeed, his father may have been named Isaac, and may have been a farmer, but not an Isaac Welsh - nor is there a marriage between an Isaac Welsh and a Mary Welsh!   In fact, as his army service record shows his mother was named as Mary Hind (and an aunt Sarah Mattinson) and the address given for her is the address she was living at with husband Robert Hind - she married him as Mary Welsh and was, as I said before, the daughter of William and Ann and it is with his widowed grandmother Ann Welsh that he is living in 1871.   Sarah Mattinson nee Welsh and Mary Hind, nee Welsh were sisters.  Consequently, you will not find an Isaac and Mary Welsh on any census.   To confirm, of course, you need to purchase the birth certificate of William Thomas Welsh.   If you have not already seen it, his army service record is on FindMyPast and it is definitely him as it also states his marriage to Sarah Kowen.

As to Alexander Weir married to Jane - think this marriage took place 29/7/1881 at Fordoun, Kincardineshire to Jane Willocks.   Alexander is shown as son of Alexander Weir, .....can't read farmer and Sarah Chalmers.   On 1891 and 1901 census Alexander is shown to have been born in Tarves, not Forres.   Jane is shown to be the dau. of John Willocks and Ann Main and 1891 and 1901 census state she was born in Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire - she was born 10/3/1853, bp.11/12/1853 as Jane Willock (familysearch) and ties in with her parents names on marriage.

Alexander Weir is a bit of mystery - in 1901 bc.1852 Tarves, 1891 bc.1850 Tarves and in 1881 bc.1849 Tarves.   In 1881 he is living with an aunt Elizabeth Johnston - she died 15/12/1889 Tarves and is shown to be the widow of a John Johnston, and the dau. of a Robert Chalmers and Rachel nee Smith.   Since her maiden name is Chalmers - same as Alexander's mother - it seems likely that she and Sarah were sisters.   However, I cannot find Alexander on 1851/1861/1871 census under Weir or Chalmers??   I suspect that Alexander Weir and Sarah Chalmers were not married - it's a bit of an anomaly in Scotland that an illeg. child can go by the surname of their natural father.   However, can't find Alexander 1851-1871, nor his birth/baptism in Tarves, under either surname.   Certainly, a Sarah Chalmers married a George Mearns 26/11/1854 Tarves but following her on the census shows no sign of an Alexander living with them. 

Best I can do I'm afraid.

Annette

[Wilton Endeavour]

Thanks Annette. Looking at the census now, it does read Tarves and not Forres as I was reading it. At least it gives me some more certificates to have a look at. Much appreciated.
And the birth cert for William Thomas Welsh advice. 

Wilton Endeavour

[colinwd18]

Hi, I’m the youngest son of Sydney Welsh if there’s anything I can help you with.

[hdw]

Thanks Annette. Looking at the census now, it does read Tarves and not Forres as I was reading it. At least it gives me some more certificates to have a look at. Much appreciated.
And the birth cert for William Thomas Welsh advice. 

Wilton Endeavour

Can I ask why you call yourself Wilton Endeavour? The reason I'm asking is that my own Welsh ancestors lived in the parish of Wilton in Hawick, Roxburghshire. Coincidence?

Harry

[Wilton Endeavour]

Hello Harry,
No I'm a railway enthusiast and I just chose the name Wilton Endeavour. It was the name of a diesel locomotive. Named by ICI Chairman Thomas Hutchinson back on 22nd July 1983 at ICI Wilton works. There is no reference to the Wilton parish.

Hello Colin,
Yes thanks for the info. I have all the info that I require for the moment.

Wilton Endeavour

[SusieDee]

Hello, I've just come across this website as I'm currently researching Sidney Welsh. He was my grand uncle. My grandfather was John Kowen Welsh, Sidney's brother.

I've also been trying to find out who William's father was because I agree it's not Isaac, though William's marriage certificate says Isaac (dec).

Colin, do you have any photos of Sidney? My mother and her siblings never met Sidney so I'd be super keen to have a photo or two so I can show them.

Thank you.