William Arthur Pay Lived in SA from 1880-1998 and from 1901-1902

[IgorStrav]

I wonder if it's worthwhile getting the birth certificates of the last two children of William James Pay and Ada Smith Pay, Robin?

Those would at least give addresses of where the births took place and also the occupation of father William James Pay at the time of the births, which might then lead to tracking him down in the 1871 census which is - I think - the only certain way you'll get a place and date of birth for him.

Otherwise - as you've evidently already discovered - there are too many to pin down and the Deal birth in 1833 (where there's a christening record) can only be speculative.

Here's the references:

PAY, FLORENCE  ELLEN     Mother's maiden name SMITH 
GRO Reference: 1873  S Quarter in MARYLEBONE  Volume 01A  Page 523

PAY, ADA  MARY  Mother's maiden name   SMITH 
GRO Reference: 1870  J Quarter in LAMBETH  Volume 01D  Page 316

[rosie99]

If it's the (William) Arthur Pay mentioned by Rosie in NY in 1910 (born c 1864 rather than 1854), is this his birth ref?

PAY, WILLIAM  ARTHUR     Mother's Maiden Name SMITH 
GRO Reference: 1865  D Quarter in
SAINT GEORGE HANOVER SQUARE 
Volume 01A  Page 283

Whoops - Thanks for correcting me Igorstrav 
.........................

Is it me as I can't see a marriage for Ada Smith and WJP. 

I am wondering if she was actually married to WJP    I am just posting this as I probably won't find it again     She gives her age/place of birth as c1844 Holborn on census.

1851 - HO107/1467 f485 p28
George Pay 34 occ Coachman bn Huntington, Sussex
Mary Pay age 42 bn Marylebone
George Pay age 14 bn Islington
Ellen Pay  age 11 bn Whitechapel
Ada Emily Pay age 6 bn Holborn
Edward Smith (Nephew) age 3 bn Lambeth.

(George Pay married Mary Smith
30 Jul 1836 at Old Church,Saint Pancras,London)

In 1861 Ada E  is possibly a servant
RG09/87 f79 p21
........
When she married in 1885 she named her father as George Smith.

She could be pretending to be married, she would not be the first to do that   

ADDED
I see that when she married in 1885 her father George Smith's occupation was a Coachman, the same as George Pay in 1851

[rosie99]

Have just turned up a copy of William Arthur's birth cert attached to Robin's tree on Ancestry.

22nd October 1865
7 Allington Street Pimlico
William Arthur Pay
Father William James Pay Barman at Licensed Victualler
Mother Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith

This matches the GRO ref I posted earlier

Who was the informant on this birth certificate

[rosie99]

Birth registration of daughter Edith (Maling)

EDITH  ADA MALING     Mothers maiden surname PAY
1885  Dec Quarter in PADDINGTON  Volume 01A  Page 70
 

[rosie99]

The William James Pay who you have born in Deal Kent
Baptised 23 Oct 1833 at Deal parents James & Mary

In 1851 he is living with his parents and his occupation is twine spinner.

In 1861 - RG9/ Piece 482 Folio 42 page 40 living at Chatham age 28 occ Rope Maker with wife Hester age 27 born Suffolk

[rosie99]

It looks as though Hester Pay may have married Richard Rose in 1866.  (Sevenoaks reg district)

In 1871 she is at RG10 /906 f74 p30

[IgorStrav]

Have just turned up a copy of William Arthur's birth cert attached to Robin's tree on Ancestry.

22nd October 1865
7 Allington Street Pimlico
William Arthur Pay
Father William James Pay Barman at Licensed Victualler
Mother Ada Emily Pay formerly Smith

This matches the GRO ref I posted earlier

Who was the informant on this birth certificate

The informant was Ada E Pay, mother, of 7 Allington Street.

As previously mentioned, it might be helpful to get the birth certs of Ada Mary and Florence Ellen to see where the family was living, just to try and track down William James Pay in the 1871.

Otherwise, it will be a case of following all the possible William Pays (he may not have quoted his middle name) on the censuses - unless you think that the 1833 William James you've found in the 1851 and 1861 might be the right one, and left Hester for Ada?  Bit of a change from rope maker to barman though.

Or - another thought following your great find of George Pay and his family and a very possible Ada - it might be a good idea to have another look at George Pay and his family in case Ada met (though apparently didn't marry) a relative, William James Pay.

[IgorStrav]

I am wondering if she was actually married to WJP    I am just posting this as I probably won't find it again     She gives her age/place of birth as c1844 Holborn on census.

1851 - HO107/1467 f485 p28
George Pay 34 occ Coachman bn Huntington, Sussex
Mary Pay age 42 bn Marylebone
George Pay age 14 bn Islington
Ellen Pay  age 11 bn Whitechapel
Ada Emily Pay age 6 bn Holborn
Edward Smith (Nephew) age 3 bn Lambeth.

(George Pay married Mary Smith
30 Jul 1836 at Old Church,Saint Pancras,London)

In 1861 Ada E  is possibly a servant
RG09/87 f79 p21
........
When she married in 1885 she named her father as George Smith.

She could be pretending to be married, she would not be the first to do that   

ADDED
I see that when she married in 1885 her father George Smith's occupation was a Coachman, the same as George Pay in 1851

I agree Rosie, that this Ada Emily Pay is indeed Ada Emily Smith - born (and christened) 1844 in Holborn, which matches the dob/pob for Ada Emily Smith Pay and her children.

Given her father George Pay married her mother Mary Smith as you say, I can't quite see why she would have taken her mother's maiden name as her own - she wasn't illegitimate (had two elder siblings who called themselves Pay).

I then wondered if her 'husband' William James Pay was related to her, and she therefore concealed the fact.
However, father George came from Funtington in Sussex (first time I'd heard of that) and I believe I've found all his siblings, children of Edward and Emily, who were all christened there.  No sign of a William Pay in the family.

What other reason could there be for using her mother's name?  Could it be that she was known as Ada Pay, and then a man appeared and she gave him her surname to appear married?  So that William James was not a Pay at all?

And then when she married for the 'second' time to George Marling, she covered up the lie by calling her father George Smith, but otherwise giving the correct occupation for him?

Flights of fancy here. 

Any other thoughts?


added

Although I see that Ada Emily Pay had an uncle, her mother's brother, called William James Smith?

[rosie99]

I am pleased we are thinking along the same lines. 

When Ada Emily Pay's sister Ellen was baptised 9 Mar 1854 (born 1839) her parents were noted as George & Mary Pay - fathers occupation Coachman - abode 2 Browns Court. (St Mary, Bryanston Square)

In 1881 census Ada Emily Pay and the children William, Alfred, Ada & Florence are living at 2 Browns Court, (St Mary, Bryanston Square)

I have yet to locate that address on the 1861 & 1871 census but can't find George & Mary Pay either.

A lot of loose ends but I am sure that we are right and that Ada Emily Smith/Pay was not married to William James Pay.