Author Topic: Connection between tragic incident and court case?  (Read 1399 times)

Offline sante

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 15 August 20 22:59 BST (UK) »
Great reading.  I am researching John Wagstaff family as mentioned in the 1841 Census and his son George Wagstaff who went to NZ and was the blacksmith and farrier in Howick in 1855. But I can't find his bap/birth in Bredon in about 1831.  Have found the others in the said 1841 Census with John and Ann (she appears to be perhaps Nancy Adams).  Any help would be greatly appreciated to find George Wagstaff bap or departure records to nz. 

Offline Grothenwell

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #10 on: Sunday 16 August 20 00:11 BST (UK) »
Hello Sante,

Sorry I canít help with the birth of George.

But can I just add a note of caution that perhaps that John and Ann (Nancy) may not be his parents. The ages in 1841 were rounded down to 60 and 55 respectively, (strangely in 1851 they are 70 and 71); so Iím suggesting that perhaps they may have been too old in 1831 to have George. He may be a grandson for instance.
Aberdeenshire; Brechin, Robb, Clark, Hardie, Johnston, Watt, Elmslie, Milne, Harper, Adam, Edmond, Laing, Gibson, Aedie, Jameson, Argo & Doverty.
Booth, Watson, Grothenwell, Ewen, Mackie, Simpson, Piper, Taylor, Davidson, Willox, Chalmers & Gordon
Still, Fraser, Robertson, Burnet & Lumsden
Banffshire; Cruickshank, Bennet, Broug, Allen, West & Lyal
Caithness; Sutherland
Herefordshire, Worcester, Monmouthshire, Gloucestershire; Wagstaff, Jones, Turner, Wiggett, Hannes

Offline jbml

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #11 on: Sunday 16 August 20 07:18 BST (UK) »

I believe that Thomas Wagstaff must have been an apprentice of his father John



Sorry I missed this first time around.

I consider this exceedingly unlikely, since men taking their own sons as apprentices was forbidden by law in the early - mid 18th century (I can't recall the exact date, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 1730s or 1740s).

My great x4 grandfather John Burrows, a shoemaker, had an apprentice called Benjamin Gooding. There was probably a family connection as John Burrows' brother Joseph had married a Gooding (Hannah Gooding).

In time my great x3 grandfather (also John Burrows) was apprenticed to the selfsame Benjamin Gooding who had been his father's apprentice.

So apprenticeships could be kept closely "in the family" ... just not a father taking on his own son as an apprentice.
All identified names up to and including my great x5 grandparents: Abbot Andrews Baker Blenc(h)ow Brothers Burrows Chambers Clifton Cornwell Escott Fisher Foster Frost Giddins Groom Hardwick Harris Hart Hayho(e) Herman Holcomb(e) Holmes Hurley King-Spooner Martindale Mason Mitchell Murphy Neves Oakey Packman Palmer Peabody Pearce Pettit(t) Piper Pottenger Pound Purkis Rackliff(e) Richardson Scotford Sherman Sinden Snear Southam Spooner Stephenson Varing Weatherley Webb Whitney Wiles Wright


Offline Grothenwell

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #12 on: Sunday 16 August 20 10:34 BST (UK) »
Hello jbml,

A very interesting fact, I wonder what date this was repealed? Certainly it is not enforced nowadays if it is still one. But if it were still in force in 1831 perhaps the Stephenís lad (still to find his relationship to Cornelius) may have been another apprentice to John Wagstaff, after Cornelius? And Johnís son Thomas an apprentice to another Blacksmith.

Unfortunately the original cuttings posted have disappeared.
Aberdeenshire; Brechin, Robb, Clark, Hardie, Johnston, Watt, Elmslie, Milne, Harper, Adam, Edmond, Laing, Gibson, Aedie, Jameson, Argo & Doverty.
Booth, Watson, Grothenwell, Ewen, Mackie, Simpson, Piper, Taylor, Davidson, Willox, Chalmers & Gordon
Still, Fraser, Robertson, Burnet & Lumsden
Banffshire; Cruickshank, Bennet, Broug, Allen, West & Lyal
Caithness; Sutherland
Herefordshire, Worcester, Monmouthshire, Gloucestershire; Wagstaff, Jones, Turner, Wiggett, Hannes

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #13 on: Sunday 16 August 20 10:44 BST (UK) »
men taking their own sons as apprentices was forbidden by law in the early - mid 18th century (I can't recall the exact date, but I'm pretty sure it was in the 1730s or 1740s).

This statement doesnít tally at all with my own findings. I can see no such limitation in the Statute of Artificers of 1563 (5 Eliz I, c.4), which effectively held sway until 1814. A reference would be very useful, if you could find one, please?

It is well known that in some trades (e.g. Thames Watermen) sons were successively bound apprentice to their fathers over many generations, extending back through the 1800s to at least the early 1700s, and this is borne out by the apprenticeship binding-books. I can hardly imagine that such widespread practice contravened the law.

Offline Grothenwell

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Re: Connection between tragic incident and court case?
« Reply #14 on: Sunday 16 August 20 11:32 BST (UK) »
The story of the drowning of 3 youths of Bredon in a boating accident on the Avon that I am sure must have had a bearing on the court case. Two of the three drowned youths were a Wagstaff and a Stephens. I later managed to find the Wagstaff was Thomas, 18 year old son of John (I have yet to find the forename of Stephens - and his likely close relationship to Cornelius).

Perhaps the Stephens surname is a co-incidence and there is no connection between the drowned youth and Cornelius.

I found Thomas Wagstaff when I had a subscription to Findmypast, and it gave me details (his age, burial info), unfortunately my Ancestry subscription gives little detail in comparison. Could some kind soul with FindMyPast do a look-up for a May 1835 death in Worcestershire for Stephens (other youth was Trapp) please?

Update on Ancestry found Daniel Trap (same church, day after Thomas burial) but no Stephens.
Aberdeenshire; Brechin, Robb, Clark, Hardie, Johnston, Watt, Elmslie, Milne, Harper, Adam, Edmond, Laing, Gibson, Aedie, Jameson, Argo & Doverty.
Booth, Watson, Grothenwell, Ewen, Mackie, Simpson, Piper, Taylor, Davidson, Willox, Chalmers & Gordon
Still, Fraser, Robertson, Burnet & Lumsden
Banffshire; Cruickshank, Bennet, Broug, Allen, West & Lyal
Caithness; Sutherland
Herefordshire, Worcester, Monmouthshire, Gloucestershire; Wagstaff, Jones, Turner, Wiggett, Hannes