Thompson Keys, Clogher, Tyrone

[hallmark]

If Mary's birth certificate shows her father as Thompson Keys, Findermore (carpenter) and her mother as Martha Jane Keys, formerly Keys.  Mary was born at Findermore on 22 Oct 1908. 

Is this document absolute proof that these facts are correct? ...Yes!!  Unless there was another Mary born at Findermore on 22 Oct 1908!!

On the stuff I posted there are a few Keys with mother nee Keys!!

[maisiemo]

Yes I see your lists, hallmark.  Loads of information there.  I do appreciate your help.

I am sure there is no other Mary born on that day at Findermore!

Broadband playing up for the past 12 hrs or so - keeps throwing me off.

[gaffy]

... Gaffy, I am intrigued by your possibility of another Thompson Keys and wife Mary Patterson.  I suppose what I am asking is does the birth certificate I hold mean that Mary Patterson could not have been my Mary Keys mother? ...

I posted the Thompson Keys and Mary Patterson couple as possible parents to the Thompson Keys who married Martha Jane Robinson, not as parents to Mary.  Just to summarise what I think, in case it wasn't clear (and yes, some of this is ultimately conjecture, but not without reasonable foundation / context of names, locations, timings etc.):

- the parents of Mary Keys born 1908 were Thompson Keys and Martha Jane Robinson who got married in 1902 - in addition to siblings William and Thompson, Mary had other siblings Lena, Joseph and Charles;

- Mary's mother, Martha Jane Robinson was born 1878 to Rhoda Robinson, father not known, Martha Jane may have had an older sister Elizabeth;

- Rhoda Robinson went on to have other children William and John Keys with Fleming Keys (can't find the Robinson-Keys marriage yet), this is one possible explanation why her earlier illegitimate daughter Martha Jane Robinson sometimes adopted the Keys surname;

- turning to Thompson Keys (father of Mary born 1908 / husband of Martha Jane Robinson), possible parents for him were Thompson Keys and Mary Patterson who got married in 1848 (the father of the Thompson Keys who married Mary Patterson in 1848 was also called Thompson Keys).

Into the mix is the possibility that the Fleming Keys with whom Rhoda Robinson had children William and John, was related to the Thompson Keys that married Rhoda's daughter Martha Jane Robinson in 1902 (possibly an Uncle?).   

Rhoda (Robinson) Key's age in the 1901 and 1911 is consistent, suggesting birth c. 1865. If all of this is correct, it would mean she had daughter Martha Jane Robinson when she was 13 (and possible sister Elizabeth when 11). Notwithstanding the consistency, the age may be wrong / understated, I couldn't find a civil birth.

Just to add that I've seen the birth record for John Keys, the 12 year old in the 1901 census return for house 3, Mullaghtinny, it confirms his father as Fleming Keys and his mother as Rhoda Keys, formerly Robinson.

[maisiemo]

Thank you for all the helpful input.  I know I have been quiet but I am taking it all in.  I do have one situation I cannot move on from, somehow. 

The Marriage record of Thompson Keys and Martha Robinson, 1902, shows they have both stated that on the day of their marriage they were 22 years of age.  This would mean they were born approx. 1880.

The Census of Ireland, 1911, Form A, handwritten, completed by Thomson Keys, and showing his wife Martha, and children, William, Thompson and Mary (my great aunt), also shows that on census day in 1911, his own age was 50 and his wife Martha's was 36, meaning they were born in 1861 and 1875 respectively.

How can that be?  How can I go back to the previous generation when there is such a difference in two formal documents at this first generation?  He may have written the wrong ages on the census form for some reason, but can I continue without getting to the bottom of it?

[gaffy]

There are a number of reasons why ages in the 1901 and 1911 Ireland census returns can be inconsistent. For example, a specific phenomenon is age inflation due to the passing of the 1908 Act to pay old-age pension to people over the age of 70.  More generally however, the reality is that a great many folk back then didn't have the same focus on or care about their birth date as we do today and didn’t celebrate birthdays. As a result, many didn't have an accurate knowledge of their age and many ages on 'formal' documents were simply a guess.

In this particular case...

The 1901 census return (reflecting the position on 31 March 1901) showed a '30' year old 'carpenter master' called 'Thompson Keys' living in 'Findermore' with his 70 year old mother - NOTE, based on handwriting, it looks like Constable James McGrath the enumerator completed the form and it was signed off in his presence by the 70 year old mother Mary (with 'her mark'), who could read, but not write, ie. the information that Thompson Keys was 30 may well have been provided by her.

Ten months later, the 1902 marriage of Martha Robinson describes her husband as 'Thompson Keys', a 'carpenter' resident in 'Findermore', and most importantly... of 'full age'. I'm not seeing the age 22, I'm aware that some online websites use 22 in their transcribed records to denote full age, but regardless, all the actual marriage record shows is that he was an adult (any age).

The 1911 census return showed a '50' year old 'tradesman carpenter master' called 'Thompson Keys' living in 'Findermore' with his wife Martha and 3 children - NOTE, this time, Thompson Keys (who could read and write) completed and signed the form, ie. he himself may well have provided his age.

At reply #15, I have provided a reasonable candidate for the birth of Thompson Keys in November 1865, reasonable in that his father was called Thompson Keys (which matches the 1902 marriage information), his mother was called Mary (which matches the 1901 census return information) and I can link him to Findermore through a potential sibling Ellen/Ellenor. 

If that is correct, then Thompson Keys was actually 35 at the time of the 1901 census and 45 at the time of the 1911 census, whereas it looks like his elderly mother who couldn't write described him as 30 in the 1901 census and Thompson described himself as 50 in the 1911 census.

We're still in the area of conjecture and balance of probability rather than beyond reasonable doubt,  but I'm fairly comfortable with these age differences.

[hallmark]

He is on the link I posted

If that is correct, then Thompson Keys was actually 35 at the time of the 1901 census and 45 at the time of the 1911 census,.....  http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/f5c3f45927228

[hallmark]

http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/7030b83497753

Name   THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth   1882
Group Registration ID   10932160
SR District/Reg Area   Clogher
Sex   N/R
Mother's Birth Surname   N/R

[hallmark]

Name   THOMPSON KEYS
Date of Birth   1885
Group Registration ID   9670964
SR District/Reg Area   Clogher
Sex   N/R
Mother's Birth Surname   N/R

[Sinann]

I agree with gaffy that the records provided add up to belonging to your Thompson Keys, but perhaps another example will help you see how common age discrepancies are,
1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000912447/
Husband and wife are 49 and 48
1911 Husband and wife are both 69
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002586640/
the children's ages are not quite correct showing how they can gain or lose a few years with the passage of time. For example Bridget is 6 in 1901, 18 in 1911.