William Williams death in Aberllefari Slate Quarry abt. 1895

[Gadget]

Hi Ian

The ref refers to the 1891 census in Aberllefeni, where a William Williams, aged 17, a slate quarryman,  is living with his widowed mother, Margaret Willaims, and siblings Gwen, Lewis and Mary Jane.

I think Roger did mention this family earlier.

To find out who Williams's parents were, you might have to get the 1894 marriage cert.

Gadget

[despair]

I'm still wondering about the statement "...he leaves a widow and two children.."Had William been married before,despite only being 20?Was this why,if the 1894 marriage is correct,it was a civil ceremony?Could this be another way of identifying him?What happened to these two children?Were they born to Mary Elizabeth before marriage?Did they die/were they the two referred to in her fertility history?Grace Lloyd has two "later" grandchildren with her in 1901-who were these?What happened to them?
More questions than answers......

Regards
Roger

[ianocon]

Hi Gadget and Roger.
I have ordered the marriage certificate - agree it seems the only way to be sure.

Roger, I agree the widow and 2 children ref. does seem strange - unless  it was just a reporter's mistake.
I am going to check again with my cousins to see if that info triggers any distant memories.
They are sure about WLW of course and of the two Hughes stepbrothers who they knew - which leaves the two who died by 1911. If it wasn't for the widow and 2 children reference in 1894, I would have assumed these must be two other Hughes children who died before 1911. There were plenty of years between 1896 (Hughes marriage) and 1911 for Mary Elizabeth to have had two who died. I wonder if I can find references for them - by a process of elimination that would explain the fertility information.
Checking for earlier births to Mary Elizabeth or William seems problematic - not least guessing what surname would they be registered with.
regards Ian

[Gadget]

Hi Ian

So far, I've only been able to find the baptism of WLW in the church records. No other definite baptisms or marriages.

I would think that the family might well be non-conformist, which would explain the civil marriages. As far as I can recall, the Lloyd/Davies marriage in 1866 was a civil one as well. One of my own lines were staunch Methodists and I could only find burials for them in the established church records. There is a non-conformist website where I found a few - might be worth looking:

http://www.bmdregisters.co.uk/

It might be worth looking for Hughes infant deaths post-1896 -1911. Other than that, burials might be the only way - linking to known addresses.

The 2 grandchildren with Grace in 1901 were both very young - 2 and 10 mths - which are most likely not Mary Elizabeth's

Gadget

[ianocon]

I think it's right that WW's mother is Margaret W, widow in 1891 with WW quarryman age 17
That would make him 20 in 1894.
She also widow in '81 and wife of John in '71 and '61 and 51.
I've ordered the certificate so hopefully this will confirm the parents as John and Margaret.

Still looking for the two children that died
Regards Ian

[despair]

It seems to me that if Thomas and Mary Elizabeth were capable of having children,one or more would  have been born in the five years of marriage before the 1901 census,yet there are none with them then.Could this suggest the two deaths were in this first five years?Below is a list of all Dolgelly registered Hughes deaths from FreeBMD that fit the criteria,and the possibly more interesting ones are given as sub-district Talyllyn on NorthWalesBMD

Griffith Hughes aged 1 Mar qtr 1898
Letitia                      0 Jun      1898
Thomas                    0 Jun      1898
Anne                        0 Mar     1899
David Arthur             4 Jun      1899(perhaps born too early?)
Elizabeth                  0 Dec      !899
Anne                        0 Mar     1900
Hannah                    1 Jun     1900
Mary                        1 Jun      1900
Mary Lizzie               0 Dec     1900

Thomas seems one obvious possibility.There is also a Mary Elizabeth born in the same quarter as him(Jun 1898).Twins spring to mind  but I can't see a death for her(see below).Just to complicate matters there is both a birth and death for a Mary Lizzie in Dec 1900.I can find a Mary Lizzie given born 1898 iin the 1901 census,born Talyllyn,belonging to another couple,so I suspect the "twin theory" is not an option.Unfortunately I can't find any baptismal data that would help in ascribing parents to any of the above.

Regards
Roger`

[ianocon]

Roger, I know you place some value on naming conventions so I wonder if that gives us any clues.
Mary Elizabeth had brothers Evan Lloyd? Lloyd and David Lloyd
and her Hughes children living in 1911 were Evan Lloyd Hughes and David Griffiths Hughes.
So given she already had a "William" with my William Lloyd Williams (her father's name and also that of another brother) that takes care of males on her side of the family although I don't know where the Griffiths comes in!
Although it's intriguing there was a Griffith Hughes died 1898 - given her living son's second name

Logically, If there was/were earlier boy(s) shouldn't they have been named after her husband or his family which makes Thomas likely. Unfortunately I'm not sure of his parents so can't take this reasoning further at the moment.
If there were earlier girls who died - Mary 1900 or Elizabeth 1899 or Grace would be possibilities.
If I can narrow it further it might be worth going for a birth cert or two.

I talked to my cousin who said there was no hint in family stories of Elizabeth already having two children before William died. I'm favouring the 2 Hughes deaths theory.
He did volunteer one anecdote of possible interest. Apparently when William and Mary Elizabeth married "they went and lived in a farmhouse owned by the Lloyd family high on the hillside above Corris - called Braichgoch Farm". I can see there is a Braichgoch Inn in the 1891 close to Brynllwyd with some Griffiths in it but not a farm and it's not clear there is any connection.
Ian

[despair]

There is a Braichgoch Farm,occupied by Evan Evans(born circa1824) and his wife Hannah and various  family members in the 1891 and 1901 census.In those listings it is next to The National School House.I'll see if I can find a map.

Regards
Roger

[despair]

It can be seen on this map directly below "Corris" and "Holy Trinity Church".

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102185131

Regards
Roger