Panter, Nichols, Swannell, Tooth and Tyrrell families of Castlethorpe.

[flateric999]

So we need to see if there is a Charles Painter/ Tyrell marriage.  Probably north Bucks.

[johngosling]

Perhaps, but I have no evidence his wife predeceased him. Charles I think was 1739-1786, Elizabeth (nee Swannell) was 1742-1812.

There's also a lot of other documents that seem to suggest no first wife; nothing conclusive I concede, but the parish records seem good for Castlethorpe and they didn't seem to stray from the village, so there's no earlier death for an Elizabeth Panter and no second marriage, though of course if a 2nd wife did exist and was not of Castlethorpe, then the marriage could well have occurred in her home parish.

So we need to see if there is a Charles Painter/ Tyrell marriage.  Probably north Bucks.

[flateric999]

Has Elizabeth married twice?

She may have been married previously,  and the children named Tyrell have a different father.

I can't look up at the moment as away from home, but I would initially work on the assumption the Tyrell children took there mothers maiden name.
It seems common practice at the time anyway.

[johngosling]

Just to throw this in. The first born of Charles Panter and Elizabeth Swannell was I believe Mary, born 1763. She died 1843. I have her death certificate under her married name of Nichols. Age of death 80. So a pretty good match. Elizabeth Pantrler (nee Swannell's) will of 1812 mentions several children including a Richard Tyrrell Panter (who actually I have yet to find a birth for) but also a Barnabus born 1782 and most telling, her daughter Mary Nichols. Now I come to talk about this (it really does help to chew the fat) that would seem to suggest a continuity for Charles Panter and Elizabeth Swannell. The only fly in the ointment is that I have a second Mary born to them in 1774, and wouldn't you believe it, a Mary Tyrrell Panter! So it seems a bit odd that we have two Mary's who would both have been alive at the same time. Given the gap between them, I can't believe the two are getting transposed.

So complicated. But thanks everyone for helping out, it really does help to be able to write this stuff down and get feedback.

[flateric999]

ok, curve ball time.

Your Elizabeth Panter was born a Tyrell. She married and became Swannell, then remarried to become Panter but used her original maiden name with the kids.

So do we know when or where she was born?

Mike

[johngosling]

Elizabeth was born a Swannell, 1742 to Joseph Swannell and Mary Chatum. There's a useful will for Joseph dated 1775 that mentions most of his children and his granddaughter Mary Panter.

I've yet to find a birth for Joseph so have wondered if his mother was a Tyrrell.

ok, curve ball time.

Your Elizabeth Panter was born a Tyrell. She married and became Swannell, then remarried to become Panter but used her original maiden name with the kids.

So do we know when or where she was born?

Mike

[flateric999]

It's certainly complicated.  I've seen naming like this in my own research and it's pretty much mothers maiden name.

But as you are certain her maiden name wasn't Tyrell, it's much harder to work back from..

There should, as you rightly say, be a relationship, but if there isn't it's even harder. 

Tyrell is an easy enough name to find, I briefly found them in Maids Moreton, Hardmead,  North Crawley in several families,  although not Castlethorpe. Yet.

Mike

[bucksboy]

This naming thing can occur as far back as Great Grandmothers maiden name, which I came across only 2 days ago, doing research in my own tree.

Sometimes a curse, sometimes a relief, but in my case, a welcome relief.

Steve.

[johngosling]

Yes, happened to me like that on a totally unrelated line to the present conundrum. Solved a major family mystery as to why repeated people including my grandfather had a middle name of Mowbray.

This naming thing can occur as far back as Great Grandmothers maiden name, which I came across only 2 days ago, doing research in my own tree.

Sometimes a curse, sometimes a relief, but in my case, a welcome relief.

Steve.