proving family links

[BeeB12]

My grandfather, who grew up in Scotland, was born in Ireland in 1881 and died in England in 1964.
I have found a record of his birth in Ireland and of his marriage in Scotland and death in England. I also have my father's birth certificate, but they have the same forename, a very common one and none of the documents mentions the place of birth of my grandfather. I want to apply for an Irish passport based on my grandfather's birth.

Does anyone have an idea of what records I might look for that would allow me to prove that the birth record I found actually is my grandfather? My grandfather's wedding took place after 1911 so I don't think census data would be any good, even though I believe that Scottish census data  would at least mention his country of birth.

Any help or hints much appreciated.

[aghadowey]

Where did grandfather marry? if in Ireland or England then should have father's name but if in Scotland then certificate should list both parents.

[BeeB12]

Where did grandfather marry? if in Ireland or England then should have father's name but if in Scotland then certificate should list both parents.

thanks for your prompt reply.
He married in Scotland, but I don't see how knowing his mother's maiden name would help me prove that he Patrick was the father of my dad also Patrick because on his birth record his mother's maiden name is listed as not recorded.

[aghadowey]

Something doesn't make sense here 

Mother's name is always recorded on a birth certificate- unless child is foundling and then that will be noted.

The chain of evidence should go something like this-

Your birth certificate should list names of both parents
Parent's marriage certificate should list his father, possibly birthdate or age
Father's birth certificate lists names of both parents
His parents' marriage certificate names both father's (if in Scotland then both sets of parents)
Grandfather's birth certificate lists names of both parents (unless illegitimate in which case only mother listed)- will also give an exact location in Ireland.

So if you don't have your grandfather's Irish birth certificate then what is the documentation that you do have?

[Sinann]

Where did grandfather marry? if in Ireland or England then should have father's name but if in Scotland then certificate should list both parents.

thanks for your prompt reply.
He married in Scotland, but I don't see how knowing his mother's maiden name would help me prove that he Patrick was the father of my dad also Patrick because on his birth record his mother's maiden name is listed as not recorded.

If your grandfather's mother's maiden name is on his marriage cert, the same mother's maiden name on his birth cert will prove he was in fact born in Ireland.

Your grandfather's marriage cert with his wife's maiden name and your father's birth cert with the same names for his parents proves your grandfather was his father.

And finally your father's marriage cert with his wife's maiden name and your birth cert with the same names for your parents will prove who your father is and therefore who your grandfather was.


Of course the mother's name will only be on the Certs if they married in Scotland.

[BeeB12]

If your grandfather's mother's maiden name is on his marriage cert, the same mother's maiden name on his birth cert will prove he was in fact born in Ireland.

Your grandfather's marriage cert with his wife's maiden name and your father's birth cert with the same names for his parents proves your grandfather was his father.

And finally your father's marriage cert with his wife's maiden name and your birth cert with the same names for your parents will prove who your father is and therefore who your grandfather was.


Of course the mother's name will only be on the Certs if they married in Scotland.

Thanks, that's really helpful. I haven't actually seen my grandfather's birth certificate, just found that there is a record of his birth on http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/ where it says mother's maiden name not recorded. I guess I can ask for the certificate and hope the name will be on there.
I also haven't seen my grandfather's marriage certificate yet, just found the likely entry on Scotland's People. I hadn't realised that in Scotland, mother's name of groom would appear, I thought I'd read that that was only during certain periods. I didn't want to start paying for certs before I knew what I was doing, but it does sound like it will be worth it for me.

[aghadowey]

Scotland's People is the place to get Scottish certificates- this tells you what details are on marriage certificates:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&403

We might be able to help locate information from the Irish birth certificate so if you'd like help with that let us know what details you already have and we'll see what we can find or at least tell you the best way to get that certificate (there are different options depending on where in Ireland).

[Sinann]

NR
The mother's name is not recorded on the index.
Not the mother's name is not recorded on the Cert.


Ordering Irish Certs. http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/civil-records/help/i-want-to-get-a-copy-of-a-certificate-what-do-i-do
You may need the official one for a passport which is of course more expensive than the photocopy.

As aghadowey said there are other options via GRO in Northern Ireland which may suit you better.

[BeeB12]

Scotland's People is the place to get Scottish certificates- this tells you what details are on marriage certificates:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/Content/Help/index.aspx?r=554&403

We might be able to help locate information from the Irish birth certificate so if you'd like help with that let us know what details you already have and we'll see what we can find or at least tell you the best way to get that certificate (there are different options depending on where in Ireland).

Thanks again, for being so helpful Aghadowey.

I haven't had any time to pursue this since my last reply. It's a real shame to have to do this research actually because one of my aunts traced the whole family tree but it was before the days of computers and her record of it kept on an old piece of wallpaper got accidentally thrown out when she died a few years ago.

All I knew was that my grandfather Patrick Plunkett was born in Ireland and was taken to Scotland as a baby and that he came from somewhere very near the border, which after partition turned out to be in just north of the border. I know he died in 1964 in Coventry and that his age was listed as 83.

After searching the Irishgenealogy site the only place listed with Plunketts very near the border was Clones. My sister later remembered that this was the place my Aunt mentioned. In fact my sister once visited the area and tried to located the actual village but without more precise info wasn't able to find it.

The entry I found was the following:
Birth of PATRICK PLUNKETT in 1881 from http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/
Group Registration ID   10842656
SR District/Reg Area   Clones
Sex   N/R
Mother's Birth Surname   N/R

1881 fits with the death in 1964 at age 83, so I'm confident it is him. I don't know his father's first name or when he died but the Plunketts aren't too numerous in Clones, so after perusing the records I strongly suspect that his father was John Plunkett married in 1866 (my father's oldest brother was called John but it's another common name, so I'm not sure how meaningful that is).

Patrick's father would have gone to Scotland with Patrick and any of his siblings but my sister told me that she thought he had returned to Ireland shortly before his death. However, I found no record of a death of John Plunkett in that part of Ireland up to 1940. That would perhaps fit with him being in Scotland (if indeed he was Patrick's father) and perhaps she mis-remembered and he was merely buried back in Ireland rather than having died there. We have no idea what year he died.

Again guessing from dates, a possible father to John would be James Plunkett who died in 1877. Unlike Patrick's mother's name, none of the above is essential to the passport issue, but it would be nice to know, so any info you can discover would be gratefully received.

Sinann mentioned the possibility of getting the certs from GRO in the North. Is that because that's cheaper or because as Clones is now in County Fermanagh, that's what one has to do?