Author Topic: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)  (Read 3631 times)

Offline elemef

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« on: Thursday 15 September 16 12:24 BST (UK) »
The offficial date recorded for the establishment of this church is 1862. I visited the church and attached burial ground some years ago, but could find no 'historical' grave memorials dating to this era, yet the parish registers date from 1804. This begs the questions 1) where was the original church sited?  2) where would the many of my post 1804 early deceased relatives have been buried? (I did find only two members buried in Garrynisk Cemetery but this is not a Catholic burial ground).  I did visit St Davids Well with a local resident who informed me that early 19 century Catholic burials took place there, and I need a local historian to confirm or discount this. Could this also have been the site of the earlier St Davids Church?    Also the BMD Records between 1920-1930 are missing; these are probably contained in one volume!! Anybody got a recorded explanation?

Any help or guidance would be appreciated.



Laurence M. Furlong.

Offline Wexflyer

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 823
  • Not Crown Copyright
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 15 September 16 15:46 BST (UK) »
My understanding is that the present church was built on the site of the previous church.
It is stated that Oylegate became the center of the parish in 1832.

The very first specifically Catholic cemetery in Ireland (Glasnevin, Dublin) opened in 1832, so don't expect to find specific Catholic cemeteries dating from 1804! (Though there may have been burials in some churchyards). Catholic emancipation only dates from 1828.

As for St. David's Well, "An old church existed near St. David's Well, but there are no remains visible."

Burials would have been in the original graveyards, associated with the pre-reformation churches and parishes. However, remember that burials were not always in the parish in which they lived - burials were often in ancestral locations, which could be quite different. Yet another aspect is that the ancient civil parish graveyard for where they lived could be in a different Catholic parish to the parish in which they lived, as Catholic and civil parish boundaries don't always coincide (not saying this latter point is the case here, just saying that such situations existed).

Why do you say that Garrynisk Cemetery is not Catholic? Online, I see references to multiple Catholic burials there, after funeral Masses, so it has to be a consecrated Catholic burial ground. If Garrynisk is in fact Edermine, then this follow from the fact that Edermine was a pre-reformation Catholic church, and the consecration of the burial ground was never affected by the creation of the CofI. 

Parish registers are lost and destroyed all the time, or never created in the first place. Also, I suspect you mean the registers are deficient from 1820-1830, rather than 1920-1930?

Finally, in all my years, I have never, ever previously heard Oylegate (the traditional/preferred local spelling), referred to as "MULLINNAGORE". So, perhaps not best to lead off with that name, as it won't ring any bells? Also, a relic of the penal era in Ireland is that Catholic churches are almost invariably referred to by their location, rather than by their dedication.  Many people will be ignorant of the dedication!  I don't think anyone would say,  "I am off to Mass at St. David's", but "I am off to Mass at Oylegate."
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island (LI); CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; EDWARDS Wex; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE LI; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline elemef

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 16 September 16 12:59 BST (UK) »
I seem to  be having difficulty.  I have prepared a reply three times and clicked 'Post' but it does not seem to be going through to you. I shall keep trying.


Offline elemef

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #3 on: Friday 16 September 16 13:00 BST (UK) »
1)  Many thanks for your speedy and enlightening reply; i'm learning something new all of the time. If you Google 'St Davids RC Church, Oylegate, Co Wexford if comes up with ' St Davids RC Church, Mullinnagore or Oilgate' (please see attached village map, which may be much earlier, and later the have re-named the village simply Oylegate!!  Later maps of the village do not show 'Mullinnagore, and so I agree it is best not to mention this in future inquiries.  With regard to Garrynisk Cemetary not being Catholic. For this I have simply relied upon 'heresay' statements in the past on my visit. 2)  The earliest family member I have traced is Michael Furlong (1771-1845), the first born sibling. I am pleased to provide his baptism record; Source Ancestry.com, but I cannot yet figure out how to upload this to you.  This simply states 'Wexford, Wexford, Ireland, Diocese of Ferns, but no church.  This does allow me to view the actual church register baptism record but this does not state the name of the church. 3) His baptism record shows his parents as Edward Furlong (born about 1750) & his wife Mary Ann Blake (born about 1750) but to date I have not managed to find their church marriage record.  I hope this offers some clarification and once again many thanks for your help.

Offline elemef

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #4 on: Friday 16 September 16 13:03 BST (UK) »
I had attached an early  map of Oylegate, and it seems that this was stopping me from sending my message. I have therefore taken out the attachment and low and behold my message was sent. So regretably I have not been able to send a copy of the map.

Offline Wexflyer

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 823
  • Not Crown Copyright
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #5 on: Friday 16 September 16 17:30 BST (UK) »
Just to clarify, some points - I was not questioning the fact that Mullinnagore was an official alternative name for Oylegate.  My point is that it is a name that is unused, and by now, in 2016, I would wager that over 99% of the inhabitants of Co. Wexford are completely unaware of this alternative name. A test would be to just stand on the street in Wexford or Enniscorthy, and say you are looking for directions to Mullinnagore, and see how many people can respond, and then try the same for Oylegate.
As for Edermine graveyard "not being Catholic". It is one of the graveyards that passed to the control of the CofI at the reformation. So you will see it listed as such. But in reality it became a mixed use graveyard, along with almost all the other pre reformation burial sites, for the simple reason that the graveyard remained consecrated ground. So Catholic burials continued in these graveyards for over 400 years, down to the present day. Another way to look at it, is that I am saying that it must have remained Catholic (in the sense which I mean), or there could not have been Catholic burials there...
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island (LI); CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; EDWARDS Wex; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE LI; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline Wexflyer

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 823
  • Not Crown Copyright
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #6 on: Friday 16 September 16 17:51 BST (UK) »
2)  The earliest family member I have traced is Michael Furlong (1771-1845), the first born sibling. I am pleased to provide his baptism record; Source Ancestry.com, but I cannot yet figure out how to upload this to you.  This simply states 'Wexford, Wexford, Ireland, Diocese of Ferns, but no church.  This does allow me to view the actual church register baptism record but this does not state the name of the church.
Actually, it does state the name of the church, or more accurately parish - Wexford. i.e. Wexford town. [Remember, these are parish records, not "church" records  - many parishes in latter years had more than one church].  I just confirmed that by pulling up the 1771 baptism records for Wexford on the NLI site, and within two pages saw the baptism for Michael Furlong, on 16/2/1771. Is this the relevant record?
http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634134#page/269/mode/1up
But can I ask the following: What makes you say that this particular Michael Furlong is "yours"? You mention Ancestry says so, but that can't really be so - Ancestry does not on its own confirm these connections, it just lists possibilities. What people sometimes forget, is that it can't list the missing realities (missing records), which are the majority. By that, I mean that if you are looking for a birth of a Michael Furlong ca 1770, as an example, then there are only a few extant registers from those years, and Ancestry or other sites can only list the possibilities from those surviving records. But most records from 1770 don't survive, so the majority or relevant births are simply not listed. This is called the "looking under the lamppost effect", and  I wonder if there may be some aspect of this here? Specifically, what triggers my alarm bells is that Wexford is an urban parish. Country folk moved to the town down the centuries, but few made the reverse move - from the town to the country. Your "scenario" has your Furlongs living in Wexford town in 1771, but then subsequently moving to a farm in Oylegate? Seems the reverse of the normal flow to me (a native of Wexford).
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island (LI); CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; EDWARDS Wex; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE LI; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wex

Offline elemef

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 16
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 17 September 16 00:17 BST (UK) »
2)  You state, "  Actually, it does state the name of the church, or more accurately parish - Wexford. i.e. Wexford town. [Remember, these are parish records, not "church" records  - many parishes in latter years had more than one church].  I just confirmed that by pulling up the 1771 baptism records for Wexford on the NLI site, and within two pages saw the baptism for Michael Furlong, on 16/2/1771. Is this the relevant record?"

The baptism record that you have sighted on the NLI database is of my relative Michael Furlong (1771-1845). But I am somewhat confused, for I cannot see the difference between 'parish records' and 'church records' of a particular baptism. Surely the hand written pages that you and I see of this particular baptism record, are those entries made in a particular church baptism register by the officiating priest/vicar, and surely that church has a name, eg, St Marys, St Josephs etc.  I realised that in earlier times there may have been more than one Catholic or Anglican church in Wexford Town, and my initial inquiry was to establish the name of the church where my relative was baptised.
 
3)  You say, "  But can I ask the following: What makes you say that this particular Michael Furlong is "yours"? You mention Ancestry says so, but that can't really be so - Ancestry does not on its own confirm these connections, it just lists possibilities." I have been researching my family roots since 1978 here in Liverpool throughout the many Catholic churches and have been able to construct quite an extensive family tree. For ten years I was the Administrator of the Liverpool Catholic Cemeteries Board and had access to all Catholic burials between 1859-1985. Like many earlier researchers I spent years of my life at the Liverpool records Office tracking back my Liverpool various Furlong families through the Census Returns, and purchasing many birth and marriage certificates. One or more of these findings pointed me towards Oylegate.  In 2001 I visited St Davids RC Church and was able to peruse all the church baptism, marriage, and death records. From this visit I was able to go away and construct various Furlong families in the Oylegate area, one of which I was satisfied confirmed my findings that I was on the right track. However, I have no way of connecting the other Oylegate Furlong families with my own. I then visited Garrynisk Cemetery to come across various Furlong burials mentioned in the St Davids RC Registers. Please remember this is years before the advent of Computers, and Ancestry.com and so I have subsequently only really relied upon Ancestry purely for corroboration of my initial findings. If you refer back to my initial inquiry, I mentioned that I wish to engage the services of a competent, or professional Wexford Genealogical researcher. My reasons for this is to  check my very many findings to date, and see if it is possible to connect with any other Furlong families, with a view to finalising my research and close the book on this project, and trust no "looking under the lamppost effect" has been applied, hopefully. At sometime in 2017 I hope to visit Wexford again when I hope to visit with any researcher engaged.

4) You say, "  what triggers my alarm bells is that Wexford is an urban parish..." I hear what you say and this is a reasonable conclusion. One of my forebears James Furlong (1807-1869) followed the trade of a 'Joiner' and his son Michael Furlong (1838-1900) followed the trade of a 'Joiner' and I would agree that these are professions that would have been followed more in an Urban area, rather than a rural area!  But then parents could well have been tenant farmers in Jamestown, Oylegate, while their siblings followed their trades in Wexford or Enniscorthy!!
I'm sorry if this is becoming too 'long winded' but I feel it is essential to elaborate on the facts; please feel free to ask further questions.. Once again thank you for any ongoing guidance and help.

Offline Wexflyer

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 823
  • Not Crown Copyright
    • View Profile
Re: St Davids RC, (MULLINNAGORE or OILGATE.)
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 17 September 16 01:59 BST (UK) »
... But I am somewhat confused, for I cannot see the difference between 'parish records' and 'church records' of a particular baptism. Surely the hand written pages that you and I see of this particular baptism record, are those entries made in a particular church baptism register by the officiating priest/vicar, and surely that church has a name, eg, St Marys, St Josephs etc.

The records are fundamentally parish records.  The records are usually (though not always) generated as a single set per parish, not per church. To give a specific example relevant to you, the parish of Oylegate has two churches, one in Oylegate, one in Glenbrian. But from 1803 to 1860 there was only one set of registers, not two, while from 1860 there were two. There are mny other examples of parishes in the diocese of Ferns with more than one church, but only one set of parish records.

As for the name of the Church, the tradition in Ireland was, and usually still is, that the church is known simply by its location, not its dedication. So, for example, St. Davids Church in Oylegate is simply Oylegate. If you doubt this, then take a look at the GRO Catholic marriage certificates, which are now available online. You will see that the name of the church is almost invariably just its location, such as Taghmon, or Glynn, or Wexford, etc.  With regard to Wexford specifically, from Cromwell's mass murder and ethnic cleansing in 1648 until 1858 there was only a single Catholic church in Wexford, the Franciscan Friary. I attended the Friary for Sunday Mass when I lived in Wexford and I have no idea - none - as to what its dedication is.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island (LI); CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; EDWARDS Wex; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE LI; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wex; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wex