Author Topic: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?  (Read 3201 times)

Offline Liza115

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Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« on: Wednesday 28 September 16 10:49 BST (UK) »
In burial records, the 'abode' of a number of PALFREY ancestors is given as 'Vronvary'. Is this another name for the village Vron/Fron, or is it likely to be the name of a dwelling?
A leasehold property referred to as 'Vron cottage' is mentioned in two wills. I'm trying to work out if all those Palfreys who died at Vronvary over the years were living in the same family home, or just lived in the same village. Can anyone with local knowledge tell me?
Thanks for your help.
Liza

Offline ScouseBoy

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 28 September 16 11:18 BST (UK) »
It is probably two words Vron Vary  and the name of either a house  or the name of an area.

The English letter F  becomes V in the Welsh language.
Nursall   ~    Buckinghamshire
Avies ~   Norwich

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 28 September 16 11:56 BST (UK) »
Welcome to rootschat Liza.

Where were those whose abode was said to be Vronvary buried?

Can you give us some idea of the years of burials?



Offline Liza115

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 28 September 16 23:23 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Scouse Boy, that's what I figured.

The leasehold 'Vron cottage' is mentioned in the will of Richard Palfrey of Trelygoed, who died in 1807 (Call him Richard A for ease of reference). He leaves it to his son, also named Richard (1780-1853) (Call him Richard B). Richard B leaves it to his own eldest legitimate son, Thomas, and it came down at least one more generation. They lived in or near Llanbadarn Fawr in Radnor. The Vron cottage was not the residence of Richard A, but he lived nearby.

The burials that mention Vronvary as the abode of the deceased all took place at Llanbadarn Fawr. They were:
Elizabeth Palfrey (buried 29 March 1817) - I think she was Richard A's widow. Not surprising for her to move out of the main house to a smaller place as a widow.
Richard Palfrey (1748-1818) (This is Richard C) - a cousin of some sort who went bankrupt in 1815. He had earlier lived at Coedgwgan Hall nearby. He could have moved in after Elizabeth died.
Richard C's son, John (1791-1818) - who was likely living with his parents when he died aged 27, a month before his father died.
Ann Palfrey (buried 27 July 1872) - abode: Fron cottage. Not sure where she fits into the tree.
Richard Palfrey (1803-1887) (Richard D) - the illegitimate son of Richard B - abode: Fron cottage. Richard D lived in the Fron/Vron cottage for many years. In the 1861 census his address is given as Vronvary - which could refer to the house or place.

It appears that the Vron cottage was used as extra accommodation for family members. If Ann Palfrey is a sister of Richard D, it wouldn't be surprising for her to be living there at the same time.
Still not clear if it is a house or a locality. Anybody got any ideas?

I looked through the whole Llanbadarn Fawr burials book on findmypast for mentions of Palfrey,  but didn't think then to see if anyone other than Palfreys had Vronvary listed as their abode. (That might show it was a locality rather than a house.) I could check that next time I'm at the library.

Thanks for helping me think it through :)


 

 
   

Offline despair

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 28 September 16 23:23 BST (UK) »
I suspect,but can't prove,that Vron Cottage and Vronvary are the same.In the 1851 census there are two or three families listed under Vronvary,very close to each other but not sequential.Amongst these  entries are other properties such as Sunny Bank,Rabber,Cwmtraethllwyn(or similar).
In the 1841 census,Catherine and Ann Palphrey(sic) are in Vron Cottage,close to Sunny Bank.Not exactly rigorous proof,but indicative.
I can find most of the properties listed(but not the "Vrons") on the following later map(generally top left hand corner).

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102189454

Regards
Roger

Offline Liza115

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 29 September 16 00:41 BST (UK) »
Thanks, despair, that map is very useful.
I had been looking on Google maps at a place called Fron, which is north of Crossgates, but maybe that is a newer development?
The place shown on the old map called Greenfield is the 'abode' given at the burial of Catherine Palfrey (buried 18 March 1843), wife of Richard C. She could be the one living in Vron cottage in the 1841 census with Ann Palfrey, who is the right age to be her daughter. Ann's age varies with the census, but probably she is the Ann whose abode was Vron cottage when she was buried in 1872 aged 85.

So, after Catherine's husband Richard C and son John died at Vron cottage in 1818, Catherine probably went on living there (with Ann, who was probably her daughter) through the 1841 census, and then went to Greenfield just before she died in 1843. I wonder who else lived at Greenfield in 1841? Does abode mean where the person lived or where they were when they died? She might just have been visiting a friend for afternoon tea and choked on a scone or had a heart attack, but was actually still living at Vron cottage. Or perhaps she'd moved there because she was ill and needed nursing. Who knows!

Ann Palfrey may be alone at Vron cottage in 1851 census, but appears to be living there with Richard D and his wife and daughter at Vronvary in 1861 and 1871. The leasehold of the cottage was in the name of Richard D's half brother, Thomas, so part of the deal for Richard D moving in might have been that Ann had a lifetime tenancy. She seems to have stayed put anyway.

It makes more sense now. Thanks!

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 29 September 16 05:54 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the additional information Liza.

Roger beat me too it - I was going to suggest examining maps in case any of the place names appeared.  :)

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 29 September 16 06:16 BST (UK) »
The enumerator covered huge distances:

Here is Fron:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=52.2841&lon=-3.3356&layers=171&right=BingHyb

Sunny bank is NE of Fron:
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=16&lat=52.2984&lon=-3.3243&layers=171&right=BingHyb

I've had a look around but can't see Fron or Vron Cottage or Vronvary, although a lot of cottages are marked on that old map. Maybe someone else can spot it.




Offline MarMnkly

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Re: Vronvary: is this a house or a village?
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 30 October 16 17:18 GMT (UK) »
Another useful link in the tithe map digitalisation site for Wales which marks Fron Vary Cottage (490 on map) just Northeast of Coedgrngan Hall on the map for Llanbadarn Fawr.
Vron cottage is marked as 492/491 on the map - all in an area called FronVari Common.
I'm not sure if the link below will take you directly to the page, or if you will have to go to the home page and search
http://cynefin.archiveswales.org.uk/en/tithe-maps/transcribe/#Llanbadarn%20Fawr&/transcribe/971450237582/&/georeference/946406517953/&/visualize/946406517953&&/map/127757637899/

hope this adds
Mar

Surname Interests
Massey, Munkley, Powell, Thompson, Thurkettle

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