Author Topic: BRASH in and near Abercorn  (Read 4660 times)

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #27 on: Friday 22 June 18 16:05 BST (UK) »
Hi Southpaw58, the attachment worked fine.

I'll take each point in turn. Hopefully <<...>> will point to your reply.

<<Colonel Halkett’s regiment.>>
Was John Brash discharged when he married? If he served after 1760 his eventual discharge might be recorded in the National Archives at Kew under the WO 97 series.

<<There is also a death record 17/10/1798 for a Betty Brash Duntarvie.>>
I believe this to be recording the death of my 4xgtgdmother Betty Brash wife of Thomas Shatton. He is first recorded in Duntarvie on 18-12-1787 then through to his death 7-2-1816, and their daughter's death (Betty Chattie, born Betty Shatton in 1774) is recorded there on 27-7-1798, both deaths warranting a mortcloth at six shillings.

<<There is also an Elizabeth born around 1803 Abercorn who marries James Marshall 29/5/1827>>
This is Bathia Brash, I am sure.
This is the transcription I was given: "19-3-1895 12.20pm Elizabeth Brash Marshall age 92 [correct if Bathia], widow of James Marshall farm-labourer, at Philpstoon Abercorn, of John Brash quarryman & Elizabeth Brash ms Brown (both deceased). Cause: bronchitis 5d. Inf: James Marshall gson 508 Keppochhill Rd Glasgow [signed]." - D-1895-661(Abercorn)-5. I took a photo of their MI in Abercorn churchyard. It reads "Erected in 1886 / by / Robert Marshall / N.Z. / bro.William d. 12-7-1854 age 17 / father James Marshall 7-4-1879 age 82 / mother Elizabeth Brash 19-3-1895 age 92".

Did you know that Mary Brash d/o John Brash & Christina Clark had a paternity battle in 1843with a Hugh Fleming before marrying her cousin John Marshall s/o Elisabeth Brash & James Marshall?

<<maybe a seventh child Jane/Jean on 2/9/1804 in Abercorn (although this BC shows the parents as John Brash and Isobel Brown.>>
Rather than Betty being one of the seven, there is this Archibald I mentioned who died in 1797. This seems to confirm he was her child, because in this way Mary Wallace had four children and Betty Brown had three, making up the seven. Isobel and Elizabeth are frequently reckoned to be synonymous, so I think this justifies the mother being Betty Brown. There isn't any birth record for Archibald but that might be because all the other children's births weren't recorded until after Mary Wallace's death and possibly somewhat later - they are in a Register of Copy Certificates in the OPR so out of their natural placement.

Addition: I found Jane Brash's death registration (15/11/1870). Her mother is Betsey Brown and her father was unequivocally a dairyman. That settles it namewise. Occupationally odd though, although a dairyman can be a farmer looking after cows (needless to say....).

<<The Death record of Agnes ... says her father John was a quarryman....>>
Not surprisingly, my information on these family groups is incomplete, so it's new news to me that John Brash is recorded as a quarryman. Given that 'dairyman' was recorded first in time, could that have been subsequently misunderstood by later informants as 'quarryman'? No, I don't so either, but he was definitely a farmer in 1841. Also, I found a home for that 5 year old William Leitch: Janet Brash was either married to or had children by a Leitch - she was visiting her son John Leitch in 1861.

<<There is a grave in Abercorn erected.....>>
Yes, it's the best indicator of his parentage, and must mean he was around in 1841 which record at Milton Dalmey tallies - apart from him being a farmer - however there's no reason a retired quarryman wouldn't turn his hand at a spot of cultivation or dairying and call himself a farmer.

<<In relation to John B and Agnes Thomson, I have not found more information on this family to date, over and above the marriage and birth information. I have seen the reference to John Brash a farmer in Newton and you could be right. If any of their three children lived beyond 1855 (unlikely?) or left a detailed grave record might provide more data points?>>
I cannot find anything.
<<Could the John Brash (h/o Agnes Thomson) be the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw?>>
Could be thus marr 17-8-1758 Abercorn to Agnes Thomson, or equally thus marr 16-6-1758 Abercorn to Jannet Cummin. There's nothing I have found to say one way or another.

That's all!

You're most certainly not wasting my time. Far from it. I'm not entirely happy with my placement of Betty Brash w/o Thomas Shatton within the Brash dynasty, and resolving the placement of John Brash & Mary Wallace is likely to help.



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Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #28 on: Monday 25 June 18 04:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Fordyce
Thanks again for the detailed reply.  Responses below:

Was John Brash discharged when he married?
RESPONSE: The record for his marriage to Janet McKomy shows him as a soldier at the time of his marriage in 1753.  When their two sons are born in 1767 and 1769 he is no longer a soldier but in Royston Mains Cramond - no specific occupation noted.  I have not found a candidate record on FindMyPast or Ancestry.  The search of TNA suggests that there might be a muster roll for the regiment he was in but these records can only be viewed on site.

<<There is also an Elizabeth born around 1803 Abercorn who marries James Marshall 29/5/1827>>
This is Bathia Brash, I am sure.
RESPONSE - Ah, right - I had thought Bathia was a separate child - your logic sounds correct.

Did you know that Mary Brash d/o John Brash & Christina Clark had a paternity battle in 1843with a
Hugh Fleming before marrying her cousin John Marshall s/o Elisabeth Brash & James Marshall?
RESPONSE - Yes - it was trying to reconcile census entries that led me to that data.

Isobel and Elizabeth are frequently reckoned to be synonymous, so I think this justifies the mother being Betty Brown.
RESPONSE - Ah, I had not heard that - but I can see it could be a variant.

There isn't any birth record for Archibald but that might be because all the other children's births weren't recorded until after Mary Wallace's death and possibly somewhat later - they are in a Register of Copy Certificates in the OPR so out of their natural placement.
RESPONSE - Thanks for clarifying the meaning of Register of Copy Certificate.

<<The Death record of Agnes ... says her father John was a quarryman....>>
Not surprisingly, my information on these family groups is incomplete, so it's new news to me that John Brash is recorded as a quarryman. Given that 'dairyman' was recorded first in time, could that have been subsequently misunderstood by later informants as 'quarryman'? No, I don't so either, but he was definitely a farmer in 1841. Also, I found a home for that 5 year old William Leitch: Janet Brash was either married to or had children by a Leitch - she was visiting her son John Leitch in 1861.
RESPONSE: My records show that Janet (D/o John and Betty Brown) married John James Leitch (quarryman) 18/5/1821 - He was from Linlithgow and she was from Dalmeny.  From the OPR's they had three children - the eldest (John) who was born 26/5/1821 in Abercorn although the surname shows as Leich.  I have not researched that line any further at this point. 
On the references to Quarryman/Dairyman - The children of John B and Mary Wallace - Agnes died Dalmeny 12/9/1870 - widow of William Finlayson and her DC says her father John Brash was a quarryman.  Their other two surviving children died before 1855 so their DC's don't reference parents.  The children of John B and Betty Brown - Janet died 28/7/1865 Widow of John  Leitch and the DC says her father John was a quarryman.    Elizabeth/Bathia as discussed - I think her DC shows her father as a quarryman.  It was the DC of Jane/Jean which seemed to suggest Dairyman which threw me.  But I think we can safely assume we are talking about the same John given confirmation of parents names.

<<There is a grave in Abercorn erected.....>>
Yes, it's the best indicator of his parentage, and must mean he was around in 1841 which record at Milton Dalmey tallies - apart from him being a farmer - however there's no reason a retired quarryman wouldn't turn his hand at a spot of cultivation or dairying and call himself a farmer.
COMMENT: Agree.  At 70 years old, I doubt quarrying would be a viable occupation.

COMMENT:


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Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #29 on: Monday 25 June 18 05:14 BST (UK) »
Sorry - accidentally hit send too soon.  There was on other thing I was going to mention....

In trying to tie down further information on John Brash and Janet McKomy, I reviewed all the John Brash death records in the OPR - with all the usual caveats regarding completeness and accuracy of the records.  On the basis that their second child (James) was born in 1769 I assume he was alive up to then.  There are 4 recorded options -
30/1/1776 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
15/8/1780 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
3/2/1792 - John B died in Midhope - Got the best M/C and paid -5-
3/12/1793 - John B in Ehland - got the second M/C and paid -2-6

My theory is that the latter could be Janet McKomy's husband John.  I am wondering if Ehland is Echline in Dalmeny.  Have you seen Ehland referenced before?

Then in 1795 there is a marriage record in Abercorn between John  Hay (Abercorn) and Janet McCombie (Dalmeny) on 13/11/1795.  There is then a death record for Janet (spouse to John Hay) in Newton on 30/6/1802, and a death record for John Hay Newton 28/8/1804 73 years old.  (There is also a second John Hay death record in Abercorn on 2/7/1805 in Abercorn village aged 72).  I may be leaping to far reaching conclusions but if this is Janet McKomy and she is roughly the same age as John Hay when she died, she would be born around 1730ish which would fit with a marriage to John B in 1753 in her early 20's.  This is obviously all complete supposition until I can find something else that helps confirm/deny it.  Still looking!

Kind regards


Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #30 on: Monday 25 June 18 15:52 BST (UK) »
I've nothing to add to you, sadly, but I've been following this, as I "have a Brash" - nothing to do with yours, I'm sure - but your wonderfully well-organised and lucid comments and what really sounds like well-researched and checked information - no grasping at straws - is lovely to read. The "conversation" of points, information, responses and reasoning is delightful. Thank you.
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #31 on: Monday 25 June 18 23:55 BST (UK) »
Hello ThrelfallYorky
Thank you for your feedback.  Very kind of you to take the time to comment.  I'm really enjoying the researching process - and learning a lot along the way.

Can I ask if you are researching Brashes from the same time period/location - ie 1700's/Lothians?  If there's any information I have that might help you I am happy to share.

Kind regards

Offline Forfarian

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 26 June 18 08:50 BST (UK) »
James Brash, born 24 May 1815 in Mid Calder, son of Thomas Brash and Elizabeth Gowans, married my 3rd cousin 3 times removed, Elizabeth Storry, in 1845. I have some information about descendants if anyone is interested in them.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 27 June 18 15:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Southpaw58.

Not too much to add, but maybe a tiny step forward?....

Re Soldier John Brash:
Bit of a dead end for John Brash & Janet McComie, the only option being Kew. I've got a note that the records of Col Halketts Regiment are at Kew under ref WO 12/11740 but I guess you've got that already. Other than any Muster Records, if he became a Chelsea Pensioner Out Patient and was receiving a pension, then, as an "Out-Pensioner" to the Chelsea Hospital it might have been delivered by the local Taxman in which case the relevant "Pensions Payments Book" ought to list every payment right up to his death. Happened to me with my 3xgtgdfather James Sibbald Preston who was discharged in 1814 after 28 years as a Private, but of course this was decades later.

The nearest I got with FindMyPast without paying is a John Brish and a John Brass.

Re Leitch:
Yes, three children, except that as well as the 5-year-old William Leitch in 1841, there is also a record of a William Leach b 30-2-1828 Abercorn parents William Leach & Janet Brash (per SPI) who died 17-1-1834 (per IGI). This looks like a fourth child with father's name erroneously recorded.

<<On the basis that their second child (James) was born in 1769 I assume he was alive up to then.  There are 4 recorded options>>

1. 30/1/1776 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
- I have him as h/o Christian Greenlaw: because when she died 28-3-1776 she got the identical mortcloth treatment, in particular she was a contributor as was he, whereas the John B 15/8/1780 was not recorded as being a Contributor.

2. 15/8/1780 - John B died in Newton - Got the best M/C and great bell and paid -3-6
- I did have him as h/o Janet Thorntoun but he would have been knocking on 90. For this and other reasons, I've discounted that and decided he died 1734/1735. So, now he's a good candidate.
There are several other candidates, impossible to count one over another.

3. 3/2/1792 - John B died in Midhope - Got the best M/C and paid -5-
- I've got a couple of timely candidates, but impossible to count one over another.

4. 3/12/1793 - John B in Ehland - got the second M/C and paid -2-6
- I believe Ehland is Echland aka Echline, in Queensferry, close to Linn Mill as well as Duddingston and Newton. I too had already noted this as a chance he is father of John Brash h/o Mary Wallace. There were Brashes in Queensferry - a family group was Henry Brash & Agnes Baigrie (he died in 1813). Another was 'your' Wiliam Brash & Isabel Nimmo with their MI in Vennel Kirk, S Queensferry. So, yes, a reasonable candidate.

But if he is, he cannot be 'John Brash farmer in Newton' not least because Agnes Brash who married David Brown 29-11-1792 was recorded than as d/o 'deceased John Brash farmer in Newton'.

Re Janet McComie marries twice.
Good thinking, and John Hay's wife Janet McCombie's death is recorded 30-6-1802 Abercorn. As luck would have it, I have the OPR page: "30th [June 1802] : McComby : Died Janet McCombie spouse to John Hay in Newton : 5/-" - Abercorn OPR. No age given. And note it doesn't say widow (unlike the previous entry), a clear indication her husband was then still alive.

Can you make anything more of that? A smidgeon of progress but still no answers!


Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 27 June 18 15:21 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian
For all the Brashes I have, none are Mid Calder. Apart from my Abercorn ones, there is a related family group who moved from Abercorn to Kincavil, Linlithgowshire, but although the forename Thomas does appear we're way back mid 1600s.

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 27 June 18 16:12 BST (UK) »
Don't think there'll be much linkage, Southpaw, the one I've got, Agnes Brash, was born c1847 Linlithgow, and I think was a daughter of Thomas and Elizabeth Brash. In June 1864 she married an Andrew Ireland, and their daughter Abigail Ireland b 1861 married into my Downies, when she married Alexander Downie.
They were the parents of Abigail Funnel Ireland Downie, who was born 1891, and went on to marry Alexander Salmon. It was the Linlithgow as much as anything that interested me, as all my Bowies and Downies seem to have been from that area.
But I am enjoying reading your research!
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)