Author Topic: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?  (Read 28049 times)

Online Wexflyer

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 05:53 GMT (UK) »
Before I leave this topic. one more observation. That is that on the 1901 census, both Johanna and her husband Edmond are listed as 50 years old, implying a birth for both ca 1850. All the discussion here has focused on Johanna and her age at marriage, but the same would also be true of her husband Edmond. If we were to go by the census age, he also would have been only 12 years old at the time of marriage! Two 12 year olds marrying in 1862? The minimum valid age for the groom was 14.  Of course, it seems that it has already been established that Edmond's actual  birthdate was 20/4/1841, not 1850. Just want to point this out.
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Offline Rosinish

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 05:56 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

I'm not saying I'm in agreement with your woman being the 'under 12' (which I'm not) with Wexflyer's observations but I would like to say to Wexflyer, in days gone by, baptisms didn't necessarily take place in a church/chapel.

I know my ancestors & others in the same area were baptised not only a few days after birth but on the same day.

The Priest visited people at home & it was as simple as that on his rounds.

This was however not Ireland but Scotland & not by fancy transport but on a horse!  ;D

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 06:17 GMT (UK) »
Before I leave this topic. one more observation. That is that on the 1901 census, both Johanna and her husband Edmond are listed as 50 years old, implying a birth for both ca 1850. All the discussion here has focused on Johanna and her age at marriage, but the same would also be true of her husband Edmond. If we were to go by the census age, he also would have been only 12 years old at the time of marriage! Two 12 year olds marrying in 1862? The minimum valid age for the groom was 14.  Of course, it seems that it has already been established that Edmond's actual  birthdate was 20/4/1841, not 1850. Just want to point this out.

Thank you ! How had we overlooked that ! Also worth noting that their son William's age is given as 21, although we know he was actually 27 from his 1874 baptism record.

I'm inclined to think that the Edmond bap. 1843 in Fethard and the Johanna bap. 1843 in Clonmel St Marys are a far more likely match. Not certain, but more likely in my view.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 06:22 GMT (UK) »
Good work Wexflyer!!!

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"


Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 06:24 GMT (UK) »
Also, since the informant for Johannah's 1906 death was her husband it would follow that if he got their ages wrong on the 1901 census he was likely to have his wife's age at death wrong by the same amount.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 10 January 17 07:11 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks to everybody who's taken part in this thread. I think we've covered quite a range of possibilities.

Wexflyer's pointing out the additional, unnoticed problem of Edmond's age on the 1901 census was the breakthrough I was hoping for.

Of course, it's not 100% certain. But Occam's Razor tells me that this is most likely to be the couple who were married in 1862:

Edmond, bap. 20 Apr 1841, Fethard, Thomas Purtill + Ellen Hanly - halfway down righthand page http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632712#page/67/mode/1up

Johannah, bap. 2 Oct 1843, Clonmel St Marys, Thomas Sweeny + Mary McGrath - two-thirds down left page http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632165#page/11/mode/1up

Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 08 March 17 20:23 GMT (UK) »
There's a concept called the Hajnal Line.  It is usually used to demarcate an area of Western Europe, where mothers married relatively late and had relatively fewer children.  Ireland is usually placed outside this territory, but it is somewhat debated, since the earlier census records don't really survive and a lot of parish records don't go back far either.

Some certainly had a lot of children.  My grandfather was one of sixteen; his mother was 22 when married.  Daniel O'Connell supposedly was one of twenty-two.

I've heard that pre-famine Ireland was different and younger marriages more common.  Most of my experience is post famine.  Most female ancestors seem to have been 25-30 when married.

Oldest 33.  Youngest 17 (said she was 18, her father died when only a few years old)

Frankly, I would be skeptical that the average 12-year-old girl would have been fertile at this time in Ireland.  No doubt, this has since changed, due to better nutrition and less disease.  Not that, I would say none would have been, just the average, as a guess.

My own personal thought would be that a 12-year-old bride would have been extremely rare.  I base this on reading a few years of pre-famine banns in Kerry, specifically Glenbeigh (a very mountainous  country place, opposite the bay from Dingle)  which does not have many surviving marriage records, only about 5 years, from 1830-1835.

To summarize: no first cousin marriages (this is what makes it seem unlikely to me).  Some second cousin, though relatively few.  Most consanguineous were second cousin-once removed or even third cousin, hard to tell which was more common.

Reported ages were often wrong and sometimes wildly wrong.  Usually a "0" (as in 50 or 60)  would indicate  a significant error, very easily 4 or 5 years, but even possibly more.

Online scotmum

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #34 on: Saturday 11 March 17 09:33 GMT (UK) »
Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, in 1911, Edmond appears to be aged 80, and William aged 38:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Tipperary/Caher/Market_Street/813311/

Also noticed that for the 1862 marriage, FindMyPast have transcribed Johanna's surname as Enery, albeit on original, I can just about see it as Sweeny.
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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #35 on: Saturday 11 March 17 10:04 GMT (UK) »
 Edmond (of Cahir) looks to have died in Clogheen Workhouse on 1st April 1912, recorded as aged 71.
"Trees without roots fall over!"
 
""People who never look backward to their ancestors will never look forward to posterity." - Edmund Burke

Don't just wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious and however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at.”  Stephen Hawking

In a world where you can be anything, be kind .