Author Topic: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers  (Read 1577 times)

Offline jomcd967

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Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« on: Thursday 12 January 17 09:21 GMT (UK) »
I have an ancestor who was a Thames Waterman, born in 1755 and admitted to the Company if Drapers in 1799. He married in 1779 and had five children, the four sons went on to be admitted to the Freedom of the City by way of their apprenticeship (as Lighterman) to their father "citizen and Draper".

His wife died in 1797 and between 1799 and 1809 he fathered a further six children with "Susanna Armstrong". He refers to his wife by this name in his will and does not refer to her as his wife. I do not believe that they ever married and that she was already married to Mr Armstrong.

My question relates to the fact that three of the sons born to Susanna were also admitted to the Freedom of the City by way of patrimony and that the document states that they request to be admitted to the Company of Drapers "because he is legitimate and was born after his fathers admission".

Would this confirm that there was a marriage?
Was the fact that my ancestor named these subsequent children as his in his will enough to prove legitimacy?

Any thoughts or insights would be greatly appreciated as a marriage would change completely who I believe Susanna to be.

Thank you for your interest.

Jo  :)
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.

Offline Girl Guide

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 12 January 17 10:31 GMT (UK) »
The fact that he named them meant they could inherit whatever it was he left to them, but it would not prove that they were born within a marriage.

What was your ancestor's name?  If you are willing to provide his name perhaps someone may be able to find a marriage for him to Susanna Armstrong.
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Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 12 January 17 10:49 GMT (UK) »
Quote
He refers to his wife by this name in his will and does not refer to her as his wife

I'm struggling to make sense of this bit!
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jomcd967

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 12 January 17 10:50 GMT (UK) »
Thanks GirlGuide, I have previously posted in my search for a marriage and after many, many years and looking in all possible places truly believe it never occurred. This is reinforced by the will where Susanna is referred to as "Susanna Armstrong" and not as his wife and is allowed to receive financial support only as long as she supports his named children by her, also by tracing who I believe Susannah to be which shows links to mutual family members and a previous marriage, in which she seems to have still been bound as her husband survived past the birth of their first child together at least.

I am curious though on how much due diligence is given to claims of legitamcy, especially as the assumed illegitimate children were baptised by their parents in their parish church, presumably lived as their children, completed their apprenticeships with their father and obviously claimed his paternity. The difference between the admissions of the first sons to the second sons is that the first sons were admitted by way apprenticeship during their fathers lifetime and the second sons were admitted by way of paternity after their fathers death. It is of course possible that they may not have been aware that their parents were never married.

Jo  :)
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.


Offline jomcd967

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 12 January 17 10:51 GMT (UK) »
Sorry Shaun J, he does not refer to Susanna as his wife in his will, see above  :)
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 12 January 17 10:54 GMT (UK) »
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jomcd967

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 12 January 17 11:05 GMT (UK) »
Thanks ShaunJ but my curiosity is to with the process of being admitted to the Freedom of the City"...would it be easy or common to lie about paternity? Would paternity be checked? And how? Would there be consequences to lying about paternity?

I would appreciate any insight as to this process if known.

Thanks,

Jo  :)
Puplett, Sonnex, Lott, Dunkiss, Hart - London area.
Hudson, Jenner, Dedman - Sussex
Leach, Hopkins, Saunders - Wales
Leach, Lipscombe - Hampshire
Sipthorpe - Lancashire
Walters - Cornawall & Australia
Kingshott, Matheson, Pitt, McDonald, Keogh - Australia.

Offline ShaunJ

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 12 January 17 11:53 GMT (UK) »
As you will have seen from the admission papers there is a declaration on oath by 6 Freemen that the candidate was born in lawful wedlock. So it would be a question of convincing them. Perhaps this would not be a problem if they were friends of the family; otherwise presumably certificates of baptism and parents' marriage might need to be produced.

 
UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jim1

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Re: Question on London Freedom of the City Admission papers
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 12 January 17 13:24 GMT (UK) »
I have an admission certificate for the daughter of a Freeman from the same period.
She was applying for admission on the basis she was born the year after his admission in 1790.
In fact she was born the year before but there were 6 Freemen signing in support, her father being dead by this time.
So massaging of the truth did happen.
For Guilds it was more about keeping their numbers up while observing their trade rules.
Warks:Ashford;Cadby;Clarke;Clifford;Cooke Copage;Easthope;
Edmonds;Felton;Colledge;Lutwyche;Mander(s);May;Poole;Withers.
Staffs.Edmonds;Addison;Duffield;Webb;Fisher;Archer
Salop:Easthope,Eddowes,Hoorde,Oteley,Vernon,Talbot,De Neville.
Notts.Clarke;Redfearne;Treece.
Som.May;Perriman;Cox
India Kane;Felton;Cadby
London.Haysom.
Lancs.Gay.
Worcs.Coley;Mander;Sawyer.
Kings of Wessex & Scotland
Census information is Crown copyright,from
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/